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Yikes, SPOILER ALERT

• andyson 6,415 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 10:43 AM

  SweetiePie:

  After a very brief chat with my Father, he quickly came up with this list of names: Lanny Wadkins, Lee Trevino, Tom Watson, Nick Faldo, Greg Norman, Ben Crenshaw and a few others who have, one and all, been divorsed in life. Why all the focus on Tiger?

  John Daly was the 1st that came to my mind.......

   

• neildiamond11790 1,115 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 10:46 AM

  SP, for the same reason that on my blackberry last night, under the sports topic the first 2 articles were "Tigers Worst Tourney Comes to an End" and "Tiger Remains No. 1 with Mickelson Choking", the media are to blame.

  The media has basically attached Tiger to all things golf.  The guy is/was the sports largest draw to everyone that didn't used to watch golf.  So for growing the sport this is what we the already golf fans are subjected to until he retires.  Where was the article on the main page about Hunter Mahan?  It doesn't help that the big names completely fell apart on Sunday.

  Forget about any props Tiger got for finishing the tournament, but from I saw and read even more about, he wasted a spot in the tournament with his hurried play on Sunday.  I would think he would have used the time to warm up for the PGA this week but that was not the case. 

  If someone can explain, how is he still No. 1 in the world?  He is not even making the list for the Ryder Cup, and with a bad finish over the next 2 weeks, he wont even make the Fed Ex Cup, so how is he still holding the No.1 ranking?

• SweetiePie 4,925 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 11:44 AM

  andyson:

  John Daly was the 1st that came to my mind.......

   

  I just called my Father to razz him a bit...he said he didn't bother with Daly because everyone already knows about his trials...LOL

• Snaike 3,678 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 11:50 AM

  SweetiePie:

  He is, the best that ever lived, like it or not.

  Dear dear SP...  We're going to have to disagree on that.

  Eldrick is the best golfer of this generation; period.   Well, he was and maybe again, but to see him over the last year one has to doubt it.  As he said yesterday, things are not the same now that he has his children to think about.  (Amazing how he never thought of them when he was out whoring.)

  Back to the point.  There are three main reasons why he will not be considered the GOAT to rational, non jock-sniffing, golf fans.

  1. Technology.  Today's golf technology makes normal golfers look like gods (small g) when compared to generations past.  One would have to imagine what pure ball strikers like Vardon, Hagen, Hogan, Snead et al, could have done with today's equipment before you could claim Eldrick was better (and could hit shots that no other pro dreamed of.)  I wonder how well Moe Norman could have done with Tiger's bag of sticks?
  2. Competition.  The greatest player with the most Majors to date is Nicklaus... yet Nicklaus had Palmer, Player, et al to challenge him at every tournament.  Yes, Eldrick is (ahem "was") better than the other competitors when he was winning by 10 strokes or more.  How many Majors did he win by 6 or more?  Plenty.  How many Majors did Nicklaus win by 1 or 2.  Palmer and Player, et al, were on Jack like stink on poo around every turn when he won his 18.  It is my opinion that if Nicklaus had the same competition level that Eldrick had to date, the record would not be 18.. it would be closer to 30.
  3. Tie .... Attitude/Aptitude & PEDs.  Just like Barry Bonds, A. Rod, Pete Rose, et al, have all come tumbling back to earth/disgraced/capacity diminished etc... you will find Eldrick in the same boat.  His winning ways have been exposed as a fraud and a fake.  Most of his life, to now, was a lie and now you are seeing the results on someone trying to get his train back on the tracks. 

  Will he win again?  Probably.  Will he break Jack's record?  Probably not.

  So, while he may be (or may have been as we look on it today) the greatest golfer of his generation he should never be considered the Greatest Of All Time.

  Besides, have you seen some of the kids playing today?  Out there, right now, is someone who will in all likelyhood make us look at Tiger as some middle of the road Pro golfer.

  Just my 2¢ on E. Tont Woods.

• SweetiePie 4,925 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 12:35 PM

  Back in the pre-1970s, a player had to be in the top 60 money winners to be tour exempt. The only other way to be available for an event, and have a chance at the purse, was being a successful rabbit on Monday. Perhaps in the top 5. There was very little of international, if any, playing against Hogan, Palmer, Player or Nicklaus. It was Gary McCord who was able to change this scenerio closer to what we have today. The competition prior to this event was very weak. The equiptment advances have come along slowly, year after. Tiger has played successfully, and dominated at every level from Junior to now...he beat everyone, and did using persimmon, metal and Titanium, along with balata, surlyn and todays balls. His current irons are not at all unlike the V.I.Ps that Jack used. Certantly his attitude is grim along with his desire. Nevertheless, he may just win the PGA this week, though far fetched, because he IS that good and that competitive. And I hope he does.

• Snaike 3,678 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 1:15 PM

  SweetiePie:

  Nevertheless, he may just win the PGA this week, though far fetched, because he IS that good and that competitive. And I hope he does.

  Fair enough...  I am glad that you have a rooting interest.

  Personally, after watching Eldrick spray the ball all over the yard this last weekend, and knowing that the 967 bunkers at Whistling Straits ~demand~ accuracy, I really don't give him a chance of making the cut.

  967 bunkers... good lord.  102 on the 8th, 96 on the 18th....   the fewest bunkers on any hole is 18 (12th & 14th).   (Source)

  Whoever wins, it's going to be fun to watch.

• neildiamond11790 1,115 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 1:26 PM

  I am gonna have to agree with SP on the technology issue Snaike.  I dont buy into the technology debate like many do, and its the same with tennis.  All the players are playing the same technology at the same time (for the most part, Bjord tried to kick it old school for some reason when better tech was available).  Every generation has played with better equipment then the generation before them.  And is SP showed, TW has played with all.  To me, and we can argue this, the single greatest technology improvement ever was the leap from hickory shafts to metal shafts.  That allowed much faster swings, new shot types, new trajectories.  Who is to say that a Vardon would have done well with modern clubs?  For all we know the modern equipment could have destroyed the tempo of Jones, Vardon, Hagen, Snead, and Hogan and shortened their careers.

  And I think about the competition in the older days, when a guy finishing 100 on tour or worse wasn't making a living on tour.  Maybe if the purses allowed for it you would have had much more competition able to play for longer times, instead what I think you had was better close competition but much fewer playerss that could have the ability to win on a given weekend, which gives way to just a handful of guys that could compete, so that in itself can make it appear the competition from just 3 guys was fiercer than it is today.

   

   

• Snaike 3,678 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 2:18 PM

  neildiamond11790:

  Who is to say that a Vardon would have done well with modern clubs?  For all we know the modern equipment could have destroyed the tempo of Jones, Vardon, Hagen, Snead, and Hogan and shortened their careers.

  Thank you both for making my point.

  This is why we can never say that any one person is/was the greatest of all time.

  Greatest of a generation?  Yes.  Era?  Yes.

  But to be intellectually honest, with a game that goes back hundreds of years, there is just no way to quantify "of all time" or "ever".

  Like I said many, many times... before 11/09 ... Eldrick is the best golfer of this generation.  He's fun to watch.  He does some really magical things with a golf ball and his presence has been nothing but great for the game of golf, the fans, and the general public.  (Between 11/09 and present... undecided.)

  But to call him the "greatest ever" is simply short-sighted.  =)

• SweetiePie 4,925 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 2:30 PM

  neildiamond11790:

  tempo of Jones

   

  And what a tempo it was. Anyone who has watched any of the segments on the Golf Channel of the old film of Jones from the early 1930s would ever deny that his tempo and skills were anything but above extraordinary. Parts of his lessons still help to this day. I still read Hogan's five lessons because it is the foundation of my swing, but also get value from Penick's Little Red book. I read Jack's Golf My Way, and received nothing but problems. None of this means anything of value, but the enjoyment of the conversation.

• neildiamond11790 1,115 Posts

  Mon, Aug 9 2010 3:19 PM

  Still think Federer is the GOAT though Snaike, wrong sport I know, and I agree with your take on that being a question that is not answerable, but Federer is the GOAT. 

  SP, love old golf vids, especially Jones.  The guy used a club like an artist used a brush.  And simple explanations, nothing overly complicated.