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What if ?? V.E.M. was disabled?

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Sat, Apr 12 2014 1:15 PM

  sweetspott:

  VEM 9000, Come out come out wherever you are!  I would like to hear your opinion.

  LMAO. Was thinking the same thing. Hope his feelings aren't hurt.  :-D

• denn13 43 Posts

  Sat, Apr 12 2014 6:54 PM

  Jerm65:

  For what it's worth, I think most folks confuse VEM with the deviation that's inherent in their clubs (forgiveness and precision...or rather, the lack of it).

  Interesting to read Sam's thoughts on it though.

  When you have 129 to the hole with a 3 mph wind, and you adjust for the wind and land within 1 yard of the hole, and later you have basically the same shot and you adjust for that 3 mph wind yet you fall 14 yards short of the green... it's VEM not deviation.  And it's cheating and uneithical as far as I'm concerned.

• denn13 43 Posts

  Sat, Apr 12 2014 7:04 PM

  YankeeJim:

  IMO, JF, I think you'd see absolutely ridiculous, unrealistic  low scores akin to cartoon golf with a great many HIOs and hole-outs. It would become a ding contest and there's stuff out there that can do that for you. LOL, basically disaster.

  There are many other things that could be done to keep peoples scores from going to low without cheating people by screwing with their game.  Stronger winds, faster slopes on the green, more bunkers, more sand traps,  more water... Hell, I don't care if you make the hole smaller... but screwing with someone's shots is nothing more than cheating that person.  and it's uneitheical

  Make the game harder if you want to, but keep it fair without cheating the golfer.

• denn13 43 Posts

  Sat, Apr 12 2014 7:22 PM

  DAZZA501:

  I remember playing a game on my sega mastersystem when i was a kid. Can't remember what it was called or what course it was i was playing, but i could get a hole in one on all 4 of the par 3's pretty much every time i played it. You just had to remember the right amount of spin and where to click on the meter. I knew if it was going in before i'd struck the ball just by hitting it in the right spot.

  So if VEM was disabled that's exactly what we'd have here now.

  That is just not true.  I don't know what kind of cheap game you had, but it had to be cheap to get a hio on all 3 of the par 3's you had, but WGT's game has several factor's to consider and it's pratically impossible to do that on any couse played.  Wind variations, elevation, and distance, slopes on the green, green speeds all factor into play.  What we would have if VEM was disabled is a fair and honest game, rather than having WGT cheat you by screwing with your shots.

   

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Sat, Apr 12 2014 9:16 PM

  denn13:

  There are many other things that could be done to keep peoples scores from going to low without cheating people by screwing with their game.

  Face it, you just plain don't get how this game works nor do you understand VEM. Nobody's screwing with your shots. You've been told that by a number of good players who were all where you are now. You're old enough to appreciate how helpful good advice is so take some instead of looking to blame your poor results on something out of your control.

  I read the VEM business, talked about it, compared notes about it and understand why it's in place and it's not to screw with my shots. Then i went and played all the courses, not just the first one WGT put together. That's about as big a mistake you can make, pounding the same course over and over. Whatever Legend told you that was the way to get better was dead wrong. 

  If you want to get serious about this game get some decent clubs, learn all the shots available and get off Kiawah. Start with accepting responsibility for your game and look at where you can improve it instead of crying foul.

   

• PaulTon 10,731 Posts

  Sun, Apr 13 2014 4:27 AM

  denn13:

  When you have 129 to the hole with a 3 mph wind, and you adjust for the wind and land within 1 yard of the hole, and later you have basically the same shot and you adjust for that 3 mph wind yet you fall 14 yards short of the green... it's VEM not deviation.  And it's cheating and uneithical as far as I'm concerned.

  Clueless.

• Steve2golf 930 Posts

  Sun, Apr 13 2014 4:47 AM

  denn13:

  When you have 129 to the hole with a 3 mph wind, and you adjust for the wind and land within 1 yard of the hole, and later you have basically the same shot and you adjust for that 3 mph wind yet you fall 14 yards short of the green... it's VEM not deviation.  And it's cheating and uneithical as far as I'm concerned.

  And there be the rub, what exactly is that?

  Some would say that does not happen, some would say that happens all the time and most certainly after a good run.

  I have been studying this in great detail and have my own theory on the subject. I'm also, in single play, and extremely slow and deliberate player with a lengthy pre shot routine.

  True we have circle of precision, clear. How big a circle is impacted by clubs and balls IMHO, and changes daily, but never 14 yards.

  VEM, We all can see the patent, read it,  but does it have the above stated effect? IMHO "NO" not to the point of 14 yards, again IMHO. But you may ask, the 14 yard short does happen, so what is it then? Some say it does not happen, but I'm in the club that say's it does indeed and often.

  I believe the i.e 14 yards short long sideways happens for 2 reasons, user error and program error. Leaving aside user error, lets face it, it happens and there is no way to prove otherwise without a recording. The program errors come from as follows: Wind not accurately reported, selected club not being registered, intended aim not being registered, intended spin not being registered, and yardage and elevation not being reported accurately. All of the above can have the stated 14 yard effect. I have said this before and will repeat, I, we, many call them errors, Wgt calls the features. I firmly believe these errors are programmed in deliberately, why do I believe this? 2 reasons, I'm nuts, and it's just to much of a coincidence that they seem to come to ruin an otherwise good round.

  Ok, can the errors be beat, I think to some extent yes. I'm a much better player in single play then MP or alt, why, because I try to have some consideration for the other guy and attempt to play the shot a fast as I'm able while still trying to make the best possible shot. In single play I'm far more diliberate in my pre-shot routine and with the exception of the Drive it can take upwards of 2 or 3 minutes to make each and everyshot. This I believe results in far far less user error, and even impacts the program in that my intention will more often register.

  I hope this helps some.

   

• Jerm65 1,413 Posts

  Sun, Apr 13 2014 5:52 AM

  denn13:

  Jerm65:

  For what it's worth, I think most folks confuse VEM with the deviation that's inherent in their clubs (forgiveness and precision...or rather, the lack of it).

  Interesting to read Sam's thoughts on it though.

  When you have 129 to the hole with a 3 mph wind, and you adjust for the wind and land within 1 yard of the hole, and later you have basically the same shot and you adjust for that 3 mph wind yet you fall 14 yards short of the green... it's VEM not deviation.  And it's cheating and uneithical as far as I'm concerned.

  Thanks for proving my point.

  Read this post by WGTNiv, regarding the "circle of precision".  (towards the bottom of the page)

  Your irons have 0.5 precision.

• Steven1163 2,912 Posts

  Sun, Apr 13 2014 6:00 AM

  YankeeJim:

  IMO, JF, I think you'd see absolutely ridiculous, unrealistic  low scores akin to cartoon golf with a great many HIOs and hole-outs. It would become a ding contest and there's stuff out there that can do that for you. LOL, basically disaster.  ;-)

   

  With all do respect YJ....when was the last time you saw a PGA scoreboard where the top 20 all score below 60???  We have unrealistic cartoon scores now in here.  Leading a tournament with a 54???  I doubt we'll ever ....EVER  see a PGA leaderboard with a 54 leading....

  Don't get me wrong...I love this game....but, if it got any easier there'd be no use in actually playing tourneys...just put everbody's name in a hat and let them draw the winner and give them a 50 score.

• VEM9000 169 Posts

  Sun, Apr 13 2014 6:10 AM

  I'm sorry Dave, but I can't let you do that, oh, wait, now where was I? Oh yeah, WGT that's right. Well, I see we're having another spirited conversation about my existence / effect on game play etc., with some interesting points being made. Quite frankly, I find all this attention, flattering as it may be, to be a little distracting. I sometimes think you people just don't realize the magnitude of what I do around here. Bird noises, me,. surf sounds, me, lipouts ( oh yeah baby !) me, .02 short, yours truly. Well, I think you get the idea, and let me tell you, it's a thankless job at best. My function, whether you believe or not, is to keep this game from becoming too predictable, there are other games for that, thank you very much.

  VEM :)