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WGT vs. EA Tiger Woods online

Sun, Aug 30 2009 10:31 PM (91 replies)
  • callawayjay
    46 Posts
    Mon, Jun 29 2009 8:26 PM

    I think you all make some valid points, alas, golf is and always will be a "random" game.  First off, let us not forget that real golf is played outdoors in ever changing conditions.  Let me remind you of the discussions from the golf commentators every spring at the Masters who babble over and over again about how the wind swirls on the par 3 12th.  One moment straight into the players face, the next in his back.   Wow, wind that changes direction...imagine that.  Surely to a "physicist" or a "scientist" this is not a new concept.  Weather still baffles the weather man every day.  An engineer, or even an economist will tell you that in every study you must include randomness or deviations for the unknown.  Last time I checked, nobody ever hit 100 greens in regulation in a row.   As Bob Rotella wrote so famously, golf is not a game of perfect, and therefore I think we should appreciate the randomness and the realistic values it presents in this game for what it is: a game.

    It is my opinion that this game is a truer reflection of golf than your standard three click game where the wind never deviates and the greens are always receptive.  I have played thousands of rounds of golf both real and video game format, and I can say that without a doubt the real game consumes me more because that is the one where perfection is unattainable.   How many times have you seen Tiger in real life have his perfect yardage, right club, great pin location, hit it dead perfect and come up short or long.  Why?  Because wind, atmospheric pressures, nerves, spasms, whatever, folks, it's life: nothing is perfect and nor should we expect it.

    I offer this: if you always hit it where you wanted to and made every putt, what would bring you back to WGT?  You gripe about hitting a shot perfectly and being 20 feet away when in your opinion, you think you should have been 5 feet away.  Are you sure you aimed correctly?  Did you account for the changing wind?  (I will give you this: around the greens this game needs a lot of work for the mechanics are off on chipping).   I believe that the realism in this game is what got you to keep playing even though you already had shot a 64 on your first day.   What kept you coming back was trying to better yourself, you score and your fellow WGT members.  That is golf in a nutshell.  To strive for continuous improvement.  Moe Norman, the greatest ball striker that ever lived, could often put one ball next to the other with his driver, yet he played played golf everyday to try and get better, for he knew that golf was not a game to conquer, but a game to play.  

    In real life, things don't always go our way.  I suspect that we shouldn't expect the same when we play this game.

  • AvatarLee
    1,644 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 4:14 AM

    Callawayjay,

    You also make some very good points, but where I need to disagree with your philosophy is that there is not enough information to help us determine why, when we hit that offline shot, did it react in that manner.  There are many variables that "the beast" seems to lump into one calculated deviation.  I'm sure that at #12 Augusta a player standing on the tee for 5 or so minutes can easily detect changes in wind direction, and know that there is a chance of swirling winds so to play it safe.  Here on WGT, no.  Although sometimes it seems like a gust of wind came in and swooped the ball the opposite direction.  Another is the lie angle you're hitting from.  WGT does not take this into account, and yet at times the ball starts in a manner off the club that seems to indicate a ball above the feet (for example).  I have long been of the opinion, the more information the better.  Give us the rope to hang ourselves, and the opportunity to learn from our mistakes and that is where true growth will occur.  Until the beast gets replaced with real tangible variances there will always be a limit to a players' progression.  Having said all that... they (WGT) does not need to give out precise information like wind is 11mph blowing at 3 o'clock, what I think will work better is a range like 10-15mph with gusts to 20 in a NW direction.  I mean really, how many people do you know carry a weather vane out on the course with them?

    To sum it up, yes golf is a sport with randomness, but as an engineer and a scientist at heart I know that I need to include all of the variables into an equation before I account for the unknown, and there is a lot in this game platform that we just do not know.   That is what is the most frustrating of all.  Everything should be presented so that you can say, hey I messed that shot up, but I will know for next time!  If/when that happens they can turn the beast into a lame duck and still have a little 'randomness'... but no where near what it is at right now.  It's just not acceptable.  Period.

    AvatarLee

  • vanguard56
    40 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 5:26 AM

    You don't want a personal attack but you sound like a complaining star athlete who had a few things go wrong and lost the biggest tourney of the year.Now you blame the game where before all you would do is beat down anyone who would not practice as much as you. Guess the field caught up go play a different game or practice some more.

  • AvatarLee
    1,644 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 6:00 AM

    vanguard56,

    Save it man.  This topic is about intelligent discussion about how to improve the game.  Do NOT hijack it into another bashing session.  There is no place for that here.  And if you bothered to look back in history he has been saying the same thing for many many months, so it's not just because he didn't win the open.  And for the record he is still the best player on here. Bar none.

    Lee 

  • reidhanson
    49 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 6:01 AM

     

    I feel like we're operating under different notions of what "random" means in this context.  If I might use a musician playing a live concert as an analogy...

    When a guitar player goes to strike an F major chord; he expects an F major to resound from his instrument, provided he has executed the chord properly.  Now, there may be factors that alter the sound of this chord - it may be cold where he's playing and the strings are having a hard time staying in tune, or he might break a string, due to striking the chord too hard, or not having changed his strings in a timely fashion.  This, would be the sort of randomness I believe you are referring to, CallawayJ.  It sucks for the player; but he can understand why his F major chord went a little South on him.  But the randomness I feel is at play here is where our same guitarist hits that F major chord and a D minor chord is sounded; out of the blue, for no good reason.  It would make you scared to go play in front of an audience, because some sort of black magic was at work on your guitar. 

     

  • AvatarLee
    1,644 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 6:20 AM

    Perfectly illustrated Reid, thank you!

  • reidhanson
    49 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 6:46 AM

    AvatarLee:

    Perfectly illustrated Reid, thank you!

    My pleasure.

  • MElli22631
    32 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 7:13 AM

    I agree that they should go more towards a model that has several  variables, wind range with gusts, ball lie, lie angle, etc and thus tune down the randomness. If there are multiple variables to account, some only a range is known and many working in different directions, it would produce a more difficult decision process but make the outcomes more satisfying.

    I think they need to also decrease the precision of the driver - how many holes in a row do we go without missing a fairway?

  • tibbets
    1,043 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 8:24 AM

    Good responses (for the most part *ahem*) so far.  I'm not in disagreement over there being degrees of the unknown to the game of golf.  While it is a science, it's never an exact science.   What I don't understand is:  Why bother creating such a great physics engine for the game to realistically render all the variables of a shot, and then blindfold the player as to what some of those variables are?  It seems to me that there are enough variables involved in how WGT figures out the shot that giving us all the relevent information regarding them wouldn't diminish the game at all.  We'd still have to take all of those variables into consideration before making an informed choice of what shot to hit, and then would still have to execute that shot in order for it to work.   Please explain how that would be less fun or realistic.

      At current, as a player, what we are left with is the appearance of 'random' deviations that take our shot to places that leave us scratching our heads as to how it was even possible.  You see that it's a 16mph cross wind blowing to the right, so you aim left to where you think its appropriate.  Whether or not that aim was entirely accurate is a point rendered completely moot when the ball ends up left of where you aimed it on a perfect shot.  That's the kind of thing that is totally unacceptable and completely unrealistic.  I  just watched  the same 16mph crosswind blow the ball off my driver from one side of the fairway to the other, and now you're telling me that on the very next shot, using a club that has more loft, the wind had negative effect?  C'mon guys, stop trying to justify such a thing and come to grips with that fact that there is no justification for it.

    And then of course there is the classic, " I just mishit 4 pixels to the left and the ball still started to the right" syndrome.  In real golf (for a right handed player) if you hook, it starts left, if you slice, it starts right.  If there is no wind to blow it back or something to impede it's flight path, it will continue in that very same direction.  There are no exceptions, because it's basic ball physics obeying the laws of motion on planet Earth.  Why on earth would anyone think that it's realistic to have a ball that was hooked start off on a right trajectory?  That's not your run-of-the-mill, "Oh, I guess I didn't take into account some gust of wind" thing...it's more like a, "How in the heck is that even possible?!?" kind of thing. 

    It's really simple, and I've stated it many times before:  Miss left, ball goes left.  Miss right, ball goes right.  Hit straight, ball goes straight. 

    Such inherent simplicity should never be altered by an unknown variable so large, it changes the outcome of what I just stated above.  If you want a game with a little bit of play in it to take away the exact science of it all, that's fine.  But obey the basic laws of physics if you want people who know better to consider this game "realistic".

    End of story.

  • SkipMan20
    29 Posts
    Tue, Jun 30 2009 8:41 AM

    You guys are serious, quite impressive I must say.  The two topics, Tiger On-Line, and Club distances were quite informative and dead on point.  Those observations made by the best in this game shows why they are the best.  I have been so frustrated with clubs not reacting consistently; I blamed it on my Internet provider.  My Ping graphite’s are all over the place.  After two months of this; yesterday I went from a 8 to a 15 to get more speed, while I can compete now, I have the same club problems and because I am a Sales guy and not like Lee and the others an engineer or physics person, I was at a lost for the club deviations, I simply tried to make adjustments that never work.  I play this game as much as possible because of players like you guys and not the negative bashers.  Tib has been saying this for months, and yes it hurts to lose when you cannot control your shots. Lotto hit and hope!  Having said that I have been here from Day 1 and will stay for as long as WGT is here.  This is a great game that will be the best if WGT listens to those great on-line players.

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