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WGT vs. EA Tiger Woods online

• callawayjay 46 Posts

  Tue, Jun 30 2009 8:15 PM

  This is a great discussion is it not?  In the interest of going forward, I will try my best to put forth some other things I was thinking while at work (and due to corporate filters, not able to enjoy WGT...grrr).   But first Lee, and tibbets, thanks for bringing up those valid points.  I would like to expand on something tibbets said.  When you ask "why bother creating such a great physics engine" I believe that you have hit the nail right on the head.   Perhaps, and I'm not a programmer so this is just a theory - one based on playing countless hours of all kinds of video games but especially sports games- that WGT's engine is not as great as what we thought.  I hope the community does not see this as blasphemy on my part for I too really enjoy this game.  But what if the randomness, is in fact not built in, but a glitch or dare I say an error in programming that they have yet found the cause nor it's effect?  

  It is hard to imagine them building such disparity into their game.  I mean c'mon, EA has had fluid A.I. for years now.  For those who don't know what I'm talking about, in their code for the game, it detects what are your tendencies (i.e. if you suck, the "computer" slacks off making it easier, and if you are killing it, it's starts to play tougher).  Bill Simmons the Sports Guy first brought this to my attention in a column he wrote about EA's Madden football and the NFW game.  He proposed that when he was playing Madden on the All-Madden setting (the hardest level) and was well on his way to winning the Super Bowl or on the verge of a perfect season, the CPU (or A.I.) would cause his players to either fumble or have an interception or make such an incredible offensive or defensive play that he wound up losing the game.  And you know what, he was right.   It happened to me too, often.  I won't bore you with the details of Madden football, but what if WGT's A.I. is as sophisticated or instead is a big pile of you know what and is therefore the reason we have what we have?  Makes a lot of sense to me.  I don't know how many times in qualifying I would go on a birdie binge only to hit it perfectly an the ball land short and into a bunker.

  I'd love to hear from those who know on this.  EA does not keep this a secret.  They even advertised one of the Madden games with the premise that you don't have to be good, the CPU will adjust to your suckability.  So is WGT not disclosing because it is still in beta or because it is trying like hell to figure it out?

   

• ncviz 527 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 4:52 AM

  This whole current system of deviations, or "lottery golf" as some like to call it was in response to an overwelming feeling of an unlevel distribution of prizes. At least that would be take on how it came about.

  So saying that, what's the solution to even things out more? Why Tibbs or Lee may not be winning as much, debatable still I think, there is still a select few that take home most of the prizes. Greed is a definitely problem, but how can tell people that can't play, just because you already won big this month? And btw Tibbs, I commend you for sitting some of the ones out this month, you may have a heart after all ;).

  Here's what I got and you can tell me what you think. Have a buy in for a group of tourneys, or seperate sets. Either way, you have to choose which ones you want to play. like pick 3 out 5 or something. There's needs to be some fundamental change like this, or when and if these random factors get taken back out of the equation, we are just going to be back where we started.

• vanguard56 40 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 5:21 AM

  Lets review and it has been said in later posts, WGT DOESN'T want you game geeks to win every tournament.You can look at programming and all your other theories but it is bad business to see the same 5 leaders every tourney every week every day.You may not like my earlier post but if one of the USUALS won the OPEN this thread would not exist. THEY WILL CHANGE NOTHING BECAUSE THIS APPEALS TO THE MASSES. Sorry if the truth hurts.

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 5:27 AM

  Actually the deviations have been there all along.  I've been here since the closed Beta, and it's been the same issue in both the stroke play and Closest to Pin challenge, in every single set of clubs ever offered, through every revision and update.  They've tried different gimmicks to mask the deviations, but at the end of the day they have always been there.  The rationale of these being "beginner clubs" has been used since day one, but even now, when we aren't using 'beginner clubs" anymore, the same amount of deviation remains.  It's a tired argument, and it's time for WGT to put it to rest and come to the realization that it is just a failed model for the game.  The way I see it, there is more programming involved in having a shot deviate than not, so really they are only making it harder on themselves by including such a thing in the first place.

  I'm certainly not going to apologize for winning Ncviz.  I don't see any of you doing that when you win something and defeat someone else who was trying but failed.  The prizes are out there to be had by all, and if it happens that a select few are the ones who win the majority of the time, so be it.  Any attempts to dumb down the game to make it "more fair" for everyone will only destroy the integrity of the site, as will limiting the amount of tournaments any player can play in.  There need not be any knee-jerk reactions to a select group of people winning.  We all start on a level playing field, and that's the way it needs to be.

  Maybe if some of these deviations would subside, you'd see more people sticking with the game and actually improving.  As it stands, many give up after awhile due to the frustrations of inexplicable results to their shots.

  Vanguard, if you took a poll about whether people think deviations should exist or not,  they would respond overwhelmingly to get rid of them.   Like I said, I've been here since the beginning, reading forum post afer forum post complaining about them for the last 9+months. And for your information, this post is just like the 20 others I have posted for the last 9+ months on this topic.  Your assumption that I am just a bad loser doesn't hold water, since I not only hold the record for number of victories, but the record for the number of #2 finishes as well.  I know how to lose, thank you very much.  Your posts are transparent, like so many others before you who voiced the same envious opinions.

  Your argument that it's bad for business doesn't hold water either, since the interest in the PGA took off after Tiger started dominating.  It's all in how you market the game, and if WGT has failed to capitalize on that element, it's their own fault.  I offered and suggested a weekly "Beat Tibbets" challenge to them 8 months ago, but they never took me up on it.  In hindsight, I'm sure they wish they did.  Everyone focuses on beating me anyway, I'm the most hated and envied player on here.  Why not use that to their advantage?

• reidhanson 49 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 5:40 AM

  Hey, Tibbets...since you've been around here for quite awhile...has WGT ever discussed these deviations straight out on any thread in this forum?

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 5:45 AM

  Reid, like I said above, the explanation (read:excuse) given was that we were using "beginner clubs", which had less precision etc.  The explanation was fine until they started upgrading clubs and the same old deviations remained.  I guess maybe someday they planned on having them subside somewhat, but at the pace everything moves around here in terms of new product, it would take another year before we saw the real top-of-the-line clubs with precision ratings at 5 out of 5.  Personally, after 9+ months and nearly 900 rounds, I'm sick of dealing with the same-old, same-old, as are most of my fellow players who have been around here a long time.  Just take a look at who has responded to this thread in agreement.....all top players.

• ncviz 527 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 7:42 AM

  I don't ever remember "random" deviations in the beginning here. Begin for me was when they opened this site. Yes, there were deviations but it was something that followed your drive. In a sense I suppose the par 3s were random I guess.

  And Tibbs I'm not asking you, Lee, me or whoever to apologize for winning. That select few I refer to would include myself. So I may be pondering ideas of how to make it even tougher for me to win, humm. All I'm thinking is if people moaning about not spreading the wealth precipated this current system, wouldn't we need a solution for that or aren't they going to be fielding the same questions from 6 months ago?

• vanguard56 40 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 8:06 AM

  Lets review again, I play this game as a game not as a part time career. Like I said the beat tibbets thing never got responded to because they don't want you to win all the time. The feel good play is for people to think that they may have a chance. I would rather spend my time playing real golf and using WGT as a background game on the computer while Im working taking a few shots herer and there. I will never post again because like I said you gentlemen are just too good for me and the occasional player. This game should just stay geared to you even though you all *** and moan over a free game.  And don't start with its not free because of the pennies it costs to buy clubs amounts to nothing. KEEP UP ALL THE MOANING AND PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.

   

  THE BEAST WILL LIVE ON FOREVER!

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 11:07 AM

  Sorry, the "all-caps-to-get-noticed" room is down the hall to the left.

  Back to the discussion.  Ncviz, yes we used to get some inclination of the movement off the drive, but it was never clear how much movement.  It could be 8 yards, it could be 1 yard.  And yes, at times the patterns changed up on us on the par 3's.  All i know is that I got no closer on those holes in the past than I do right now.  There was, and still is, some unknown variable that sends the ball to a predetermined amount of yards off the center line.  We just had a better idea of which direction that would be in the past.

  As for the top players thing:  The leaderboards still look the same as they did back then, with the inclusion of a few new names.  They've tried switching up the gimmicks many times over, and nothing has stopped the cream of the crop here from rising to the top.  So, it would appear that no matter what the gimmick is, great players are great players and figure out a way to execute their skill better than the rest.  It would follow that since that is true, there's no sense in trying to "Tibbets-proof" the game. ( I use that term only because it will be the most identifiable, not because I'm the only one who has proven their worth in capability of winning).

  Of course people moan about not winning.  Check out any forum of any game anywhere and you'll see patterns of a select few winning alot, and the rest complaining about it.   Statistically speaking, thats the norm.  I don't consider it a problem, as we have many different tiers for people of varying skill and time-allotments.  I think if the tier system were tweaked a bit more, and the top tier was harder to get into, we'd have less complaining about such a thing.  The people who wanted to play alot and worked hard to hone their skills would be where they belong, and correspondingly the people who were just every now and then players who were using the site for a social thing would have their respective places to compete as well.  As it stands, the Master tier is a bit too inclusive.

• MElli22631 32 Posts

  Wed, Jul 1 2009 11:47 AM

  I think most people who play this agree that they would like this to be as accurate as possible and allow skill to determine the outcome. Adding the additional variables of wind gusts, lie angle, etc would increase the skill required. If 85% of the tourneys are won by a few so be it - I tend to be in the tier below you guys, occasionally sneaking in the top 5-10.

  I know some of you have been around since inception - curious if anybody has had more direct contact with WGT on ideas beyond email suggestions?

  Maybe Lee can plead our cases at the Play with Parker - assuming they have reps there.