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Wed, Jan 26 2011 9:57 AM (61 replies)
  • buckethead054
    12 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 7:10 AM

    always one in the bunch

     

  • jbenny11
    863 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 7:26 AM

    Add approach on Kia. #12 to the list. From the back tees this approach is a total crapshoot. One time it goes dead left, next time dead right, dinging the meter means absolutely nothing here. JB      P.S. #14 sucks also!!!

  • Richard4168
    4,309 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 8:12 AM

    AvatarLee:
    While I can agree that there are some funky things going on on Kiawah of late, half of the result of that shot can be explained...

    After re-reading your post, I get the impression you don't believe that VEM exists in this game. Where I'm unable to prove that VEM does, or doesn't exist, I have to believe it does exist with knowing it's attributes, how it can effect a shot, and through playing experience as well.

    Can you explain to us if the "funky" things going on at Kiawah can be attributed to VEM, or could it be programming bugs?

     

  • AvatarLee
    1,644 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 8:50 AM

    Richard4168:

    AvatarLee:
    While I can agree that there are some funky things going on on Kiawah of late, half of the result of that shot can be explained...

    After re-reading your post, I get the impression you don't believe that VEM exists in this game. Where I'm unable to prove that VEM does, or doesn't exist, I have to believe it does exist with knowing it's attributes, how it can effect a shot, and through playing experience as well.

    Can you explain to us if the "funky" things going on at Kiawah can be attributed to VEM, or could it be programming bugs?

    Well just from my experience there are places (holes) that present consistent issues for some people (many not be the same holes for all people).  That does not fit the VEM model.  From what I recall (and it's been a while since I read it) the VEM would adjust the difficulty of a round based on past performance of the individual, this does not lend the certain players having consistent issues on the same holes.

    Take the "7i issue"  it has long been know that this club in many sets have caused players very much grief.  (As an aside I believe it has always been a yardage issue from 140-160 yards rather than a specific club issue... but I digress)  As longer drivers were released, we as Masters (pre-Legend tier) were getting closer and closer to the greens, lowering the probability of having to use the dreaded 7i approach thus the issue seemed to "go away".  But now that we have been pushed back, it is starting to come to light again (at least for me) in some places.  

    The same can be said about the deviations that are programmed into this game, it is not necessarily due to the fact that the VEM is "punishing" us because we are playing well as legends, but I think it has more to do with the average length of our approach shots as a result of our pushed back tees.  Obviously the longer the shot the more magnified any "mistakes" or pre-determined deviations are.  A 2 degree aiming deviation will have a much higher effect on a 3 Iron approach than an 8 Iron approach, would it not?  Because let's face it, we are far more concerned about deviations on our approach shots to the pin rather than our drivers off the tee, right?  We may notice it and shrug it off with our driver, but it will make the difference in a good leave and a bad leave when playing into the pin.... which is the difference between birdie and par in any game of golf, real or virtual.

    So I guess in a nutshell, no, I still do not buy into the idea of the VEM model being present and active on WGT.  In fact I think (and have always thought this) that the VEM is simply the increased difficulty of being pushed back on the tees as you progress through the Tiers.  It's directly related to the difficulties of the deviations, not the cause.

    My 2cents, your milage may vary....

    But hey, in the end it is just a game, meant to bring enjoyment!

    As always, Have Fun!

    Lee

     

  • Richard4168
    4,309 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 8:59 AM

    Good answer Lee. I was always under the impression that the deviation or shot randomness was VEM. But in any event, thanks for the thoughts. It makes sense.

  • YankeeJim
    25,827 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 9:41 AM

    Dang, I like learning stuff.  :-)

    Tx ,ALee

  • sdorr
    650 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 10:00 AM

    I have been seeing this kind of flawed shot behavior for awhile now. It is most noticeable on the par 3's and it really does not matter which course. More troubling is that now this adverse shot behavior is happening off of fairway shots. On all of my par 3 shots I have stopped moving the aiming marker and trying to ding the shot, but even this does not help most of the time. The ball seems to have been pre-programmed to go wherever it wants and it is not toward the hole. I know that's stupid but I do not have any other explaination. The wind also seems not to have any effect as I have witnessed the ball travel into a 12 mph cross wind and fly straight towards the other side of the green without moving an inch.

    I am sure WGT knows of this glitch and probably will do nothing about it as it does not occur all of the time. I have observed this type of arrant shot behavior about 1 out of 7 shots from a par 3 tee and about 1 out of 16 shots from the fairway. Like someone else said here on the forum, I just close my eyes and hope for the best. When the shot behaves like this, it's out of my hands.

  • BolloxInBruges
    1,389 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 10:12 AM

    Richard4168:

    Good answer Lee. I was always under the impression that the deviation or shot randomness was VEM. But in any event, thanks for the thoughts. It makes sense.

    Nope, VEM  is misapplied by 99% of the people that toss the term around in the forums.  Agree w/ everything Lee said.

  • andyson
    6,415 Posts
    Tue, Jan 11 2011 10:48 AM

    AvatarLee:
    From what I recall (and it's been a while since I read it) the VEM would adjust the difficulty of a round based on past performance of the individual,

    To help refresh your memory Lee there were two key paragraphs discussed.  One about detecting improvement in skill levels and on about what the Virtual Equipment Model does with it to change game parameters.

    ""A skill level monitor 306 monitors changes to user skill level. A change in user skill level can be detected by the user's proficiency at using a given piece of virtual equipment to achieve one or more goals in the virtual universe (e.g., such as an improved score), the ability to perform relatively advanced tasks with the virtual equipment, an achieved accuracy rate using the virtual equipment, an achieved precision rate using the virtual equipment, time spent using the virtual equipment, combinations of these, and other factors, in one implementation, user skill level is quantified as a number. If the skill level increases or decreases beyond a certain threshold, a change is communicated to the VEM 306, which in turn can communicate the change to the input model 302 and the representation 304."

    "Based on a change in skill level, one or more of the VEM 306, the input model 302, and the representation 304 can adapt to reflect the change. Adapting the VEM 306 can include changing the value of one or more variables in the set of variables, changing one or more relationships in the set of relationships, adding or removing one or more variables in the set of variables, adding or removing one or more relationships in the set of relationships, and combinations of these, in the case of an increased user skill level, for example, the virtual equipment model 306 could add additional variables for controlling the virtual equipment that were not available at a lower skill level and change variables representing distribution curves, thresholds and sweet spots."

    I doubt the game has even once detected an increase in my skill level beyond a threshold to change anything in its models. ;o)

    However, when it does detect your and Bollie's higher skill level, the distribution of club deviations  could be changing so you, Priestess and others see larger deviations more frequently.  IMO this would kinda, sorta fit what you presented.

    As I recall the only statement we got from Mr. WGT is "the clubs don't change".  That would still, IMO, leave open the changing of the models and how club parameters interact with them.

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