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Glitches and Trust

Fri, Dec 29 2023 2:09 PM (21 replies)
  • HamdenPro
    2,487 Posts
    Thu, Dec 21 2023 5:21 PM

    SamSpayed:
    I believe Cicero733 might have an interesting story to tell about this

    Actually, Cicero733 has an interesting story about most things. :)

  • HamdenPro
    2,487 Posts
    Thu, Dec 21 2023 5:26 PM

    Cicero733:
    I play RSA #16, I believe it is, the hole with the fence and road to the right. Playing in a right to left crosswind, I have to aim to the right to compensate for the wind, meaning I’m hitting outside the established boundary of that hole

    Oh my! Now, that is against the rules. I am going to have to report these incidents concerning your repetitive violations on RSA #16 to the local rules committee. 

  • Cicero733
    2,312 Posts
    Thu, Dec 21 2023 5:59 PM

    Feel free to. I would welcome it. This is Britain so the R&A and not the USGA would prevail. I would like to believe given the various aberrations encountered during the development of the game they encountered over the centuries would have conditioned them to have a more practical view of and approach to the game. I can’t recall the USGA ever having to rule concerning the passage of sheep flocks traversing the fairways and blocking up the bridges.

  • Cicero733
    2,312 Posts
    Thu, Dec 21 2023 6:00 PM

    One of the hazards of growing old…

  • HamdenPro
    2,487 Posts
    Thu, Dec 21 2023 9:29 PM

    Cicero733:
    I would like to believe given the various aberrations encountered during the development of the game they encountered over the centuries would have conditioned them to have a more practical view of and approach to the game.

    You are talking about a sport (a profession) that literally encouraged the ostracization of a great player solely because he had bad teeth.

    As for the stories, tbh, I love hearing each, and every, one. :)

  • MioKontic
    4,654 Posts
    Fri, Dec 22 2023 4:55 PM

    Cicero - fantastic story.

    When you first mentioned the pole I immediately thought 'local rule', and so it was.  In that case I think the USGA were right in not intervening because they don't know the reason for the local rule.  I do have to ask though, was it a local rule?  Was it written anywhere, either on the card or on a noticeboard somewhere?  If so, your playing partners were right in pointing it out.  If it wasn't written down somewhere... *shrugs shoulders*... not sure it can be upheld.  In most cases, local rules are an extension of the main rules of golf as provided by the R&A and USGA, and I don't believe they should contravene the main rules unless it's for safety reasons.  I suspect the tournament organiser didn't know the rules and just blindly 'followed' what others had said.

    As for the club president 'local rule', they cannot do that!  I'm 99.99999% sure that a club cannot make a local rule for one player, regardless of the reason.  I can only say that it's obviously a club for 'buddies', and one I wouldn't want to be a member of.

    Do you know the reason for the local rule about keeping right on the pole?  What is to the left of it?  Also, at only 10ft high, it can be very conjectural whether a ball is to the left or right of it when it is 30ft or more in the air, partulcarly when viewing from different angles.  Why do you think you have an umpire standing under each upright of an American football game when a kick is being taken!!

    Like I said previously, on St Andrews #17 you hit over the out-of-bounds both in real golf and on WGT, and it's not a penalty so long as the ball finishes in-bounds.  It can even bounce in the out-of bounds.

    In 2005, whilst I was working for EDS, and they were the main sponsors of the Byron Nelson Championship at the TPC Las Colinas (and Cottonwood Valley for the first 2 rounds), I went over to marshal.  On the 4th hole Tiger Woods sliced his tee shot so badly that it sailed out of bounds... hit a wall of the property adjoining the fairway, and ricocheted back into the middle of the fairway.  The ball was played from there with no penalty.

    And finally, St Andrews is just St Andrews, it is not preceded with 'Royal', which I believe is the course your RSA was referring to, hence why it's known here as STA, not RSA.  Royal St Georges does indeed have the word 'Royal', as do many others in the UK, but not St Andrews.

  • Cicero733
    2,312 Posts
    Sun, Dec 24 2023 12:06 PM

    I’ll answer as best I can.

    Was it a local rule? It was a local rule in that it was understood to be a local rule, but, no it was not noted on the score card nor on any other written document. As far as the local rule adopted for the club President, yes that was for real. He was a great guy (and a friend of mine) and he had a wicked slice almost to the point that his ball traveled further to the left in terms of distance as opposed to down the fairway. The rule was the only way he was able to play golf on our club’s course. For example, hole #2 was a short par 3, about 135 yds with a steep upward elevation (much like WC #2, just shorter). The hole had OB to the right and a giant old oak tree to the left. The only way our prez could play the hole was to aim for the middle of the oak tree. Sometimes he was able to completely bend around the tree and make the green. Most times, however, his ball would strike near the top of the tree and bang around among the branches and land on the green a good percentage of the time. It was great entertainment. 

    What was the post protecting? The controversial crux of the matter. Our course used to be private, but sometime in the 1970’s it was sold to a local development who wanted to close it and build an upscale housing development, which he could never do as he ran into conflicts with the township and county zoning and codes departments. However he was successful in getting these agencies to approve a small building project whereby he would close holes #5 and #6, erect a seniors’ housing project on the land, and rebuild the fifth and 6th holes further to the south. Well the 5th hole rebuild was a disaster (this is the hole in question). In order to build the hole on the available ground, he had to make it a rather severe dogleg left. A creek ran down the left hand side of the hole and cut across the fairway right where the dogleg to the left began in essence cutting the hole into two parts. The first part of the hole, where you would tee off from was about 200 yds in length, meaning most players use to hit 5 irons in order to position for the second shot which was anywhere from 175 yds to 225 yds depending upon where your tee shot ended up. The set up didn’t sit well with the membership and it wasn’t long before many players elected to cut the fairway short by driving to the left and over the creek into the second fairway (even the club pro used this route). The owner for whatever reason didn’t like that approach (he was also criticized in the local paper for destroying a golf hole that had been around since 1923 so he may have been trying to appease his critics). He came up with the idea of the post to stop players from cutting the fairway short. Given the pole’s position it was virtually impossible to hit across the creek without bringing the pole into play. Members were infuriated. Rather than remove or reposition the hole, a “rationale” was promulgated that stated the real reason the pole was put in place was to protect players on the 6th tee from tee shots from the 5th tee that may come too close to players on the 6th tee. The only problem with that was the landing area for tee shots from the 5th was a minimum of 100 yds away from the 6th tee, meaning unless you could hit a hit tee shot in the range of 325 - 350 yds the players on the 6th tee were safe from any wayward hit tee shots. The whole situation was ridiculous and so enraged the owner that he refused to entertain any other potential solutions and made this “fix” permanent. We have something similar to this in WGT land at BPB#1. Most everybody hits to the right over the trees and into the fairway. If our owner had that hole he would have put a pole right where the fairway turns to right and issued a local rule saying all tee shots must be to the left of the pole.

    The rule was deemed “stupid” by the membership and generally ignored. The only time it was recognized and invoked was when somebody saw it as an opportunity to gain an advantage over another player. In my case it was a “tournament”, not quite official but one where you paid your entry fee, someone in the pro shop held the money, and the prize (cash as opposed to merchandise) was paid out to the top three teams sometime during the following week when business was slack. My score for that hole, birdie, was discounted and my partner’s score was substituted. We eventually won the event and after taxes, title, dealer prep, and handling fees were subtracted my partner and I won a whooping $14.00. I immediately re-invested my $7.00 portion of the winnings in a half bottle of beer in the clubhouse.

    I elected to challenge the ruling as I didn’t think the flight path of a ball could be penalized, I wanted to make officially public my thoughts on the reworking of the hole, and I was supported by quite a few members who were hoping this would lead to eliminating the post. The club pro thought like you. He encouraged me to involve the USGA, but noted that he thought their ruling would be a decision not to get involved.

    BTW, a thought just occurred to me. Maybe our owner was WGT. For several months after my ruling was received, everybody tried to work on a tee shot that would take the pole out of play, allow you to fly the ball over the creek, and land in the fairway. A lot of ball hits used up in the process and a lot of lost balls (in the creek). I for one thought a draw shot from the tee would work, but it didn’t. For me at least, hitting driver with the intention to draw the ball instead of hitting a 5 iron, the ball would travel too far forward in addition to drawing to the left and I would end up over the creek but well right of the second fairway in a wooded area that was definitely out of bounds. I did “solve” the problem in the last few years I actively played as I played the hole by adopting the Lee Trevino approach. I’d hit an iron from the tee to a position from which I could hit a 7 wd to the green.

    Your note on St Andrew’s is most interesting. I have always thought the name was Royal St Andrews. Thanks for the clarification.

     

  • HamdenPro
    2,487 Posts
    Sun, Dec 24 2023 12:27 PM

    Cicero733:
    I’ll answer as best I can.

    Wow, more proof of what I have been preaching, the best way is not always the shortest way.

    I enjoyed the read, but, admittedly, I read it, by breaking up in three parts, 1/3 after each meal.

  • Cicero733
    2,312 Posts
    Sun, Dec 24 2023 2:01 PM

    Part 3 will be tomorrow and negotiations continue with Max for a 5 part streaming series.

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