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Club characteristics? Don't believe them.

• ghettocop1 259 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 4:33 AM

  Let me know if I am not understanding this correctly.... I recently made Master. I understand my Driver leaves a bit to be desired, and the green speed takes adjustment. However, the accuracy of my Irons has greatly diminished from what they were as Pro. I understand the greens are slippery, but my ability to land a target initially should not have changed. They are vastly less accurate in the Master tier. WGT's statement regarding this is "the characteristics of a certain club will not change no matter who is using it". Look. I have no problems spending money and upgrading clubs.....I've done it three times already, however I have to call *** on this claim. Thoughts?

• ncviz 527 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 5:13 AM

  The master are more accurate, but at a price though. You have to hit the mark.

  You could think of it as a bell curve. The lower tier clubs would have a flat curve with it peaking at say 80, but outer mishits being say 60. Well the master clubs would peak at 95, but the outer mishits would be 45. It puts much more of a premium on hitting the mark.

• ghettocop1 259 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 5:39 AM

  Thanks for the response ncviz. I understand that the Raptures are not nearly as accurate as the Master Tier irons. What I mean to say, is apparently the Master tier courses require more accuracy? I was far more accurate with my Raptures as a Pro than I am as a Master. If this is the case, then WGT's statement regarding club behavior is not reliable. Again, not a complaint, I will upgrade clubs yet again. Just an observation.

• andyson 6,415 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 5:44 AM

  Could the difference be in the default winds?  Are the winds for a ranked round as a Pro less than the moderate winds for a ranked round as a Master?

• ghettocop1 259 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 6:50 AM

  andyson:

  Could the difference be in the default winds?  Are the winds for a ranked round as a Pro less than the moderate winds for a ranked round as a Master?

   

   

  I considered that.  The average high wind as Pro was around 12mph, whereas Master seems to be 14-16.  However, more often than not they stay in the 9mph range.  I am basing this off of Kiawah and BPB, not Andrews.  Shots with similiar wind conditions achieve much different results.  I have also taken into consideration the different approach shot yardages, as I'm not driving as far, and have pitched around to my usual landing areas so I could compare approach shots.  Bottom line for me is, the accuracy I achieved as a Pro with the Raptures was much greater than as a Master.  Again this is understandable, and quite frankly expected as upgrading to Master Tier clubs should be the thing to do.  However, this calls WGT's statement regarding VEM and club characteristics into question.  Clubs do not behave the same regardless of the players skill level.

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 11:48 AM

  ghettocop1:

  However, this calls WGT's statement regarding VEM and club characteristics into question.  Clubs do not behave the same regardless of the players skill level.

  Maybe, maybe not. Look at it this way. Your clubs in a pro's hands act a certain way. Put them in the hands of a master and they supposedly act different. How can this happen if the club's characteristics aren't supposed to change? What if there was a factor relative to the tier that would affect the club result, not the characteristic? 

  If x=amateur, y=pro and z=master  with the club's characteristics=c  then you would have 3 different results when associating the variables with c remaining constant.

  WGT has never directly addressed the VEM questions other than to say the club characteristics don't change, which I believe is true. How you manipulate the different associations would explain how ghettocop is experiencing what he is. This is where I believe the VEM is doing it's designed job. It's all math. JMO

   

   

  (It is not my intent to hijack this thread and turn it into a VEM rant-just looking for logical reasoning here.)

• ghettocop1 259 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 12:37 PM

  You are not Hijacking it all, Jim. Your line of thought is the way I am leaning on this. However I believe that the actual "course", and not the skill of the player might be the variable. My skill level remained exactly the same during my Pro-Master change-over period on March 5th. My Irons however are behaving like I have a totally new set of clubs. My putter as well, to a certain extent, but not nearly as dramatic. I just get this sneaking suspicion that things will be more to my liking when I buy a Master Driver, Master Irons, and Daytona. This of course is logical, allows WGT to make revenue through frequent club upgrades etc. I just wish I did not have to replace my Irons and Putter as well, to see results.

• Dannyphantom 85 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 1:05 PM

  I was using the Rapture Pro set when I made Master and I think the difference beetween the results has more to do with the G10 master set having a high trajectory and more spin. I didnt notice it so much at St Andrews where its still more short irons into the greens, but at BBB it makes a huge difference I feel. The accuracy of the Master set is also a big advantage in the long run at all courses I have found.

• ghettocop1 259 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 1:40 PM

  Dannyphantom:

  I was using the Rapture Pro set when I made Master and I think the difference beetween the results has more to do with the G10 master set having a high trajectory and more spin. I didnt notice it so much at St Andrews where its still more short irons into the greens, but at BBB it makes a huge difference I feel. The accuracy of the Master set is also a big advantage in the long run at all courses I have found.

   

   

  I have no argument as to whether or not the G10's are a superior club with superior performance.  That is not what I am talking about.  To make it simple...... If the "club characteristics remain the same regardless of user",  would I not then be able to achieve the same results with the same irons on the same holes in the same conditions whether Pro or Master?  Again, I'm not referring to Driving or putting.  The variables have obviously changed for those two clubs....ie: Longer tees, faster greens.

   

  Thanks for your replies everyone.

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Sun, Mar 7 2010 1:57 PM

  ghettocop1:

  If the "club characteristics remain the same regardless of user",  would I not then be able to achieve the same results with the same irons on the same holes in the same conditions whether Pro or Master?

  When I made master last summer I was using the pro TMs. I didn't switch when I made master, I just got the 8.5 driver. I played the pro irons for a while and didn't have any real problems. The only reason I switched to the master version was out of curiosity. The only difference in the pro and master versions was the distance, for the most part. Accuracy and spin were better but I play a fast and loose game so the accuracy rating wasn't too important at the time. The spin was so I upgraded. 

  Now, having used the master versions and appreciating the difference, it's a different game. You get to the point where you expect certain results from your clubs and when you see the difference between master and pro clubs you find yourself wondering how the heck did I score the way I did with those clubs?

  Call it whatever you want-VEM, the $ invested or whatever-the way this game is set up is slowly becoming quite brilliant to me as it really emulates real life, as best it can.