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Re: Wind indicator

• JFidanza 1,676 Posts

  Thu, Aug 28 2014 5:31 PM

  andyson:

  Well, you took an extreme case to explain how you analyze it.

  I try to keep it simple in those extreme cases. Just use a camera view that is closest to the line from ball to pin and adjust for any "parallax" from there.

   

  Yes. There are other less extreme cases at the other thread. 

  I know you, andyson, can get an idea of the wind. But the OP query was basic, and some of the responses where interesting.

  I just have a few things that I consider: One- that the OP had the same questions I once had, which shows that the topic is a little curious. Some aren't aware that the camera views are linked to the vane.

  Two- there are many considerably skewed approach views on WGT which have 'forward' as almost 90 degrees 'off pin', blows my mind, lol, not really I get why the shots are like that, as that's where the camera person framed it.

  'Powerstar' golf has helicopter vision, so this has a nice LOS view, but that is like cartoon golf.

  Three- some other cams, like reverse, are skewed, at least enough for me to consider. This may not bother other players.

  Four- as I've researched, the courses w/ increased skewed-camera views seem to be the exact ones giving many of the good players the hardest challenge! (But I'm still looking)

  Now the tough greens might be another issue which add to this fact, but I've personally found the same courses to be more of a challenge because I've made the wrong presumption on the wind (see the OP) which applies esp. to the approaches, but also to some drives. 

  So, I use the method, 'the mini map and other camera views', as I've posted.

  Like you said you can keep it simple: ' I look for the camera view that best points from the ball to the pin.'   

• JFidanza 1,676 Posts

  Thu, Aug 28 2014 6:38 PM

  andyson:

  I try to keep it simple 

  Just use a camera view that is closest to the line from ball to pin 

  One of the things I like about the method is that it can be easy.

  Step 1: aim forward, then note the wind bearing  

  Step #2: mentally adjust that for your shot's angle (depicted in 2)

   

  The 2 steps can be done in my head, without a calculator or clock face, within 8 seconds once you get used to it.

  This is great because if you are moving fast, or maybe you are very familiar w/ the course, or it's a basic drive or approach, you won't have to use the other cameras as much.

  Sometimes on my end the other cameras start to lag and they take some time to switch.

  This also avoids the issues with a skewed reverse, or other, camera angles which are inconsistent and they vary with each hole. This way, you simply set your aim forward and glance at the vane & map. It's a fast, uniform & constant technique. 

  

  I almost always adjust the aim pointer, so first I'll place aim forward (if I choose, I can easily grab the arrow on the mini map and move it, use the 2 steps above, then place it where I need, maybe adjust using the chip grid & zoom, etc.)

  In these cases, the fact that the avatar angle is also limited and can create this 'parallax effect'. Checking the advanced option for 'avatar angles' may partly correct this, but during some shots there are certain sides of the avatar which are never angled normally even if you have selected the option to turn. That's the 'apparent displacement' due to viewing the limited avatar angles.

• JFidanza 1,676 Posts

  Fri, Aug 29 2014 2:31 AM

  What is interesting is that I just found out this whole topic was apparently a big issue and concern in the past. IMHO I have nailed it w/ brevity and a concise explanation. 'Aim forward, verify wind bearing, adjust shot'. This are the basic steps I use.

  I did also add more words to be clear. But in past forum posts there have been some good points and some not so good points tossed around. IMO some may just be incorrect.

  Andyson, you seemed to have a big hand in trying to figure out this topic. Lets see a few quotes:

  "I'm still confused.......and really not good at reading the wind on those off center views,..

  "Thanks for everyone's input. I'm handling the wind much much better thanks to this whole discussion and exercise." "Before, I was thinking the wind indicator was relative to the line from the ball to the flag"

  Then 'Lee' :"To sum it up... Note the wind on the tee with respect to the overall map... this is the 'truest' it will be throughout the entire whole.  When you play your next shot, it is likely that your view to the green will not be as straight as when you teed off, thus making the wind 'appear' to have changed direction."

  Andyson: "[Lee summed it up], This is working well for me on those strange offset views."

  YankeeJim, MBaggese we all involved in other threads, too.

  http://www.wgt.com/forums/t/5918.aspx?PageIndex=1

  and TallAcePaul: 

  "After the amount of time I have spent here I should know this but don't!!"The wind direction shown on the screen, is it blowing as your avatar faces forward or is it blowing as per your line of shot direct to the hole? Just been bugging me lately."

  ".. is my reading of the wind incorrect. I wonder if its worth asking the question of WGT because this is something that should be made perfectly clear. "

  [emphasis mine]

  http://www.wgt.com/forums/p/8762/56426.aspx#56426

  ---

  So, my whole point is that the way I have shown is practical, fast and accurate.

  I believe the main consensus and explanations all concur.

  I just use the aim pointer to find out the orientation of the view very quickly and accurately. This can be done at any shot, not just the tee off.  

  Unfortunately, the player, zoom, reverse, etc. views may be skewed and varied. Applying the aim forward method, and the vane along w/ the mini map helps to remedy this challenge, from what I can see.  

  One may glean all the infomation from the dozens of posts, figure it out themselves, or try my 2 steps and browse my diagrams, it's their choice. If you believe I should add/remove something let me know so I can update it.

  TYIA

• andyson 6,415 Posts

  Sat, Aug 30 2014 11:14 AM

  JFidanza:

  Andyson, you seemed to have a big hand in trying to figure out this topic. Lets see a few quotes:

  "I'm still confused.......and really not good at reading the wind on those off center views,..

  LMAO!!  Yup, in Feb of 2010 I WAS confused by the wind.  I had been here 9 months and might have been just a Tour Pro.(Master was the top tier at the time)   G10 driver, Rapture irons, Tour GI-S blue balls!  LOL

  Things I learned from Tall Ace Paul and AvatarLee that I still use today

  • -The wind direction on the screen is relative to the camera's point of view.  I figure the GPS doo-dad seen on top of the WGT camera gives the software a compass direction in degrees for that shot looking straight down the lens.
  • Since the camera point of view on the tee is normally very close to straight down the middle of the photo and mini-map.  The wind indicated on the tee is as AvatarLee said, the truest wind direction for the entire hole.  (Heh, for a long time I did use a "sticky" over the mini map to indicate the "true wind"

  JFidanza:

  If you believe I should add/remove something let me know so I can update it.

  What would help is more detail on the "adjust shot" step.Take the Oakmont hole 2 shot above and tell us as a result of that step.

  1. How many MPH headwind will you adjust for
  2. How many MPH cross wind will you adjust for.

  You might have noticed on the forum people say "I had 192 yds 3 ft up with a 12 wind at 2 (o'clock) so I subtracted 6 for the tail wind and hit 187 and aimed left for 10 left to right wind"

  Something like that would be good to add as a result.

   

• JFidanza 1,676 Posts

  Sat, Aug 30 2014 2:19 PM

  andyson:

  What would help is more detail on the "adjust shot" step.Take the Oakmont hole 2 shot above and tell us as a result of that step.

  1. How many MPH headwind will you adjust for
  2. How many MPH cross wind will you adjust for.

  Something like that would be good to add as a result.

   

  ARRIGGH I was bluffing! I have no idea. [edit: Because this is about wind bearing. How to adjust for wind depends on many variations of power, spin, course played, equipment i.e. club type and specs, etc. and that is not what I'm talking about if you've noticed. crickets...]
  

  LOL, I'm still testing out wind adjustments...but like many I'll take what I think may be the feet needed to move aim from the pin, and move it according to the heading, which is hard for me sometimes w/ the square grid.

  Someone posted a clock overlay for this purpose, I believe.

  I noted an interesting view from Congressional, I believe it's Congressional...but that hole always challenges me.

  Figure A is the approach player view.

  Fig. B is map adjusted for 'aim strait  forward' (blue line) as North

  Fig. C is wind vane adjusted for the mini maps usual, linear position.

  Fig, D is all adjusted for 'aim on pin' as North.

  Which isn't a big difference but and it all does no help LOL, but I might have Birdied this hole which is rare.

  

   

• andyson 6,415 Posts

  Sat, Aug 30 2014 4:22 PM

  J, if you are saying you would figure and adjust for the wind on the above shot as 12mph at 8 o'clock I think you're ball is getting wet.

  Watch my replay from about the same spot.  I used the same BB 3W as you have.  I had the back pin so the shot was longer.  The wind was similar to yours above.  I aimed exactly at the back pin.  With my headwind I knew carrying the water was marginal. I knew the wind would move it about 5yds left so I went for it.  Full back spin and a ding.  Watch how little the wind moved it.

  Replay

  More tomorrow I've got a CDP to get.

• JFidanza 1,676 Posts

  Sat, Aug 30 2014 6:45 PM

  andyson:

   

  J, if you are saying you would figure and adjust for the wind on the above shot as 12mph at 8 o'clock I think you're ball is getting wet.

   

   

  [Yea, this was a bad hole to test with IMHO because I have a theory that some hazards like water are 'magnetic', as many other people seem to believe, (even legend HackWilson1930 "No matter how the wind blows,"  ) but esp. on this water hazard. I've even lost so many balls here I've resorted to using the intentional hook esp. w/ quick meter balls.If this is a fact or not, I still believe a good idea would be to just try a test on a clear shot as you've once shown on BPB] 

  But, regardless ......

  After reading a lot of your older analysis and looking at many of your diagrams on the topic, it all seems to concur.

  The 'aim forward' method seemed to check out as I deduced the wind direction using the technique in the diagram. I aim forward (fig C) only to find 'camera forward'. Then I adjust the map in my head for aim forward to point 'North', then juxtapose the wind vane (which is relative to camera forward) to the properly oriented mini map (fig. D).

  It was only when I switched to reverse cam and started to draw my green, wind-direction  line, which was discovered by the method (also depicted in fig B), that I saw the reverse camera angle 's wind pointer was congruent, or very similar. (fig E) 

  

  Anyway, I've been having success w/ the method as today I was testing out my newer, lower grade, G25 L59 irons on Kiawah and my shots were all very close. This might be one of my most successful games. Note the distance to pin @ 5.7 feet. 

  

  Maybe you could also test my presumption if that 'aim forward' is the same as 'camera forward'. Again, people may use whatever works. This is just interesting for me.

  bla, bla alert!

  [I want to disclaim that if these methods aren't working, or it's just a little too much to read, understand, I am mainly interested in wind bearing and similar observations because of my long time interest in submarines & torpedo solutions. I  have studied all about it, and I've been on a submarine, and there is the Torpedo Data Computer (TDC)- 

  The solution on how to hit an enemy ship involves knowing the heading of the sub, its speed, the enemy targets speed and bearing (which was sometimes acquired by visual observation of the target's profile), plus the speed of the torpedo, etc. etc,. But i digress.]

• andyson 6,415 Posts

  Sun, Aug 31 2014 6:49 AM

  JFidanza:

  Maybe you could also test my presumption if that 'aim forward' is the same as 'camera forward'.

  Photos have perspective.  Objects in the distance are smaller.  I'm not sure I placed the vanishing point correctly in the photo but it should give the idea....

  

  If you want to follow "camera forward"  you'd need to follow the perspective.

   

• WigerToods2010 8,447 Posts

  Sun, Aug 31 2014 8:04 AM

  No idea if the image below will assist in your discussion, chaps.

  

  Thinking the 3 different views on the approach?

  Feel free to edit/use accordingly if you wish.

  All together now - ♫ " We all live in a........... " ♫

  Johnny.

  (Click the image for full size version)

• JFidanza 1,676 Posts

  Sun, Aug 31 2014 11:37 AM

  andyson:

  If you want to follow "camera forward"  you'd need to follow the perspective.

  I like it. I've used 'perspective forward' as the base for 'North' and it seems to correspond with the reverse camera angle wind vane direction, Maybe even better that the 'aim forward' method.

  'Back to the drawing board..' 

  I will keep this in mind as I play future games.

  ----

  A point to question would be why is (lets call it) 'perspective camera forward' different from where WGT has place the 'aim forward' axis? How is where the aim forward determined by the programmers, and why do they choose those points?

  Another way to word the question is,

  "What is the wind pointer using as the axis?" or

  "Is the wind vane using the 'aim forward' as the axis?" or "Is the wind vane using 'camera forward' as the axis?"

  As andyson has demonstrated, 'camera perspective forward' is different from 'player's aim forward'. What is the wind vane relative to? We know for sure not the mini map.

  ----

  Anyway, good work, everyone. My average is dropping like a starter ball.  Any more points are welcome & appreciated.