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Re: The Site Police

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Mon, Aug 24 2009 8:41 AM (35 replies)
  • GSpinks1962
    106 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 8:16 AM

    I totally agree that we need better moderation of these forums, particularly when it comes to some of the responses to the newbie’s posts. Some folks here can be very rude to new folks that ask some of the very basic questions. I understand the workload that comes with such a task as I am part owner and administrator on an on line Sim Racing Site. We don’t have the membership that this site has but it can still be a lot of work. I’m sure this is against the terms and conditions of the site but here’s the link.

  • nivlac
    2,188 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 10:27 AM

    Thanks for the nod, Faterson.  I'm pretty sure I'm on the record somewhere saying I'd be willing to help out WGT for free.  I've had some experience with moderation in the past (admittedly not nearly in the same capacity as yourself), but I can do all of those basic things you mentioned.  It wouldn't be terribly time consuming, just a few clicks and a deleted/locked/merged thread once in a while.  There's not that much to do here.  I have rather lengthy experience in sales and customer service, so I understand how to work with the general public in a retail-type environment.  I also understand how a clean, well run forum can give a business a positive public image.

    There's a section in the Terms & Conditions about Game Masters.  Typically forum duties would fall on players like this, so hopefully this is something they are considering in the near future.  It couldn't hurt.  I hate seeing all the redundant posts while the real posts with real questions sometimes get overlooked in the clutter.  This game is only going to increase in popularity, which means the forums will see more and more new users every day.  Things are becoming mildly cluttered now, so what will the landscape look like in 8 more months?

    So what do you think WGT?  Perhaps a small team of "trial-basis" mods so we can show you just how much we actually can help you in this small, but important area?  Don't you guys already have enough to do? =)

  • GSpinks1962
    106 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 10:46 AM

    I would second Faterson's nominations.

  • Faterson
    2,902 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 12:12 PM

    nivlac:
    It wouldn't be terribly time consuming, just a few clicks and a deleted/locked/merged thread once in a while. 

    I'm not so sure about the "once in a while", unless you define "a while" in terms of minutes.    (Just kidding.) An issue specific for this WGT forum is that it looks like it's run by unique forum software, developed by WGT only for this site. At least, I haven't seen this specific type of forum software anywhere else on the Internet before. And to be honest, this forum's WYSIWYG editor, despite a number of serious current flaws and deficiencies, shows great potential and I like it a lot; it's an improvement over the ubiquitous phpBB (and even the commercial vBulletin & Invision Power Board) compose editor in many ways. WGT could have more easily employed a free installation of phpBB 3 and be rid of the problems and bugs that abound whenever you're developing new software from scratch. There is that highly visible unavailability of the Quote & Preview buttons bug, for example.

    But, far more important for moderation is the merge/split/move/shadow-topic functionality you alluded to. These are anything but obvious features! It took phpBB years until they provided moderators with these vital moderation tools. Until version 2, we had to manually install all sorts of awkward "mods" extensions to enable basic merge/split, etc. Who knows if the current WGT forum software makes merge/split/move/shadow-topics possible at all. If not, that will make moderators' work significantly more difficult. For example, instead of merging duplicate threads, moderators will need to lock all threads but one related to the same issue, and upon locking, always refer the original poster to the only active (unlocked) thread on the particular issue. That kind of thing can be pretty time-consuming, actually.   

    A moderating functionality this forum would sorely need are shadow topics. What this means: a user would like to post a new thread to more than just 1 forum subsection. What they do now, and it's completely wrong, is that they send the same post (equal wording) to more than just one section. That only creates chaos and increases the clutter we already have here. See a recent example: here and here and here. This is, in fact, a triple post    – something that's completely unacceptable in a standard discussion forum. (No offence to Gaoerfuqiu meant, of course, who is a great guy!) The proper way to do this is to send the post only once, and ask the moderator(s) to create shadow topics of that single post in other forum subsections. So, the link to Gaoerfuqiu's post would appear in several forum subsections, but if the user clicked on the link, he/she would get transferred only to a single thread where Gaoerfuqiu's proposal would be discussed. But, since this forum has no moderators who would take care of Gaoerfuqiu's concern, you can't really primarily blame Gaoerfuqiu for doing what he did. I have never seen a single shadow topic in this entire forum so far, so the question is whether WGT's own forum software enables the creation of shadow topics at all! If not, we're in trouble. (Or potential future moderators are.)

  • nivlac
    2,188 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 1:02 PM

    Woo, phpBB mods.  That's a blast from the past.  Man, what a time consuming PITA most of those were to install.  =/

    That may very well be the reason they haven't employed community mods yet.  As you said, "unique software", so there may not be the moderator specific functions for the things you and I have grown accustomed to executing with a few clicks.  Virtually all of the forum bugs you have posted over time I have found myself nodding in agreement..  I'd come across quite a few those myself, but knowing how small the WGT team really is, I tend to let things slide to the back burner.  I suppose if I had to choose one over the other, I'd rather have them work on the game.

    So, yeah.  Let some of us peons do the busy-work so you guys (WGT) can concentrate on finishing the best game on the web. =)

  • Snaike
    3,678 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 1:22 PM

    You just KNEW I would show up here, dincha?!    I hear my name ( a reasonable facsimile or rhyme ) and I appear.

    First of all, let me say here and now, that I truly hope Faterson's prediction is wrong.  I do not want to see this thread deleted or modified in any way, shape or form.  There is some very good information and background... and, as per WGT's Forum Admin's notes, this discussion IS constructive.  To that end and for that purpose, I will endeavor to keep my sarcasm and causticity to an absolute minimum.

    To answer Jake's (Sorry Jakestanfill7, your nom de guerre is a mouthful and I'm going to shorten it, hope you don't mind) circumlocutory question;   I can't play enough.  Simple as that.  Since December, 08, I have recorded 175 ranked rounds, probably somwhere between 200 and 250 rounds started.  A quick bit of math will tell you that's less than one round a day.  Currently at 68.xx something.  Progress is being made in that regard.  I could enter the August International Tourney and shoot an artificially low score to gain it, but I refuse.  I want to EARN it.  I am not in a hurry to gain Master status, but when I do I want to know that not only can I PLAY on that stage, I want to be able to COMPETE there, as well.  The forums are way too full of "WHY AM I A MASTER?" whines threads as it is. (sorry... sarcasm slipped through)

    Which brings us to the aforementioned forums... Jake's other question is basically why do I do it?  The answer is a bit more complicated.  The majority of my time is spent away from the computer...  I have 2 opportunities a day to log on to WGT.  The first opportunity is on a computer that will never be able to play the actual game...  ( a number of reasons I won't go into ) ... but will allow me to browse the forums.  So, like Faterson, the forum's windows are basically in the background for that part of the day.  There are moments in my day, between the episodes of utter chaos, that I am able to sit down and read... respond if I think I have something to add.  The 2nd opportunity to log on, although much much shorter than the first, is on a machine that will actually let me play a round of golf or two.  (Of course, while in a foursome and waiting for my next shot, I can be found in the forums as well.)

    Unlike my antagonist , the absolute king of circumlocution, I believe in the short, sharp, cutting, quick, funny (albeit sometimes a bit painful) reply.  When you ask me the time, I will not build you a clock.  I will tell you the time.  The nail that has come loose needs a hammer to put it back, not a psychologist to understand why it's loose.  Jake, you experienced this in some of the very first post/replies you made, IIRC, (a bit of "smart-assery" if you will remember).. your 2nd and 3rd posts.  Some people take offense, some don't.  It is not my concern one way or the other.

    I like WGT... the golf is fun, the rules are simple, and the whole setup is easy to understand.  If someone has a legitimate question, I will try to answer them accordingly.  If someone acts stupid, I will try to answer them accordingly.  There are good ideas and bad ideas in the forums... I will agree with the good ones and make sure that my disagreement with the bad ones is known.  I may not be right,  most of the time, but anyone who has read what I write will know where I stand.  One thing I cannot abide is the breaking of the rules and the blatant cheating.. these individuals get nothing but dripping resentment and rancor.  There are not enough bullets for my sarcasm gun for them.  For this I get labeled "unstable", "vain", "b!tch", "verbous".. etc... /shrug.. it really doesn't matter.

    Overall, that is what makes me 'tick', Jake... I hope you understand a little bit.

    Now, on to the topic of Forum Moderators...  Yes, yes yes and YES.. we need forum moderators.  This may be one of the very few topics the Forum King and I can agree on.  ( I am certain there are others, but none are currently top-of-mind. )  I would also agree that a team of moderators is needed, as long as they were SUPERVISED by a WGT employee.  I would, however, STRENUOUSLY and ZEALOUSLY object to a moderator who has shown a propensity for bias and prejudicial thinking... thereby eliminating both "Snaike" and "Faterson" for the job.  Moderators should work, as stated in a post above, both silenty and invisibly... neither quality is possesed by either person. 

    So, there you have it... a bit of long-windedness from myself.  I hope you found your answers from this side of the camp, Jake.  I can't speak for the others.

    Peace.

  • tibbets
    1,043 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 1:22 PM

    The issue with player-run forums in every game I've ever played is the inevitable questions that arise of a lack of impartiality and favoritism.  I'm not saying that the accusations have been fair all of the time, but nevertheless the appearance of impartiality must be maintained for the sake of credibility.  This can only be achieved by a non-participant third-party administering the forums. 

    Sure, I'd love the ability to lock threads and move topics to their proper place, but inevitably someone would question a decision and the accusation of bias would begin.  Once things start down that road, they rarely get better and usually end with large polarizations of groups who are pro/anti the administrator. 

    We're already experiencing a large degree of that polarization as evidenced by the hostility in the forums the last few months.  I'd hate to see someone involved with the game get brought down under hostile circumstances.  Leave the game to the players, and leave the forums to someone who doesn't have a vested interest to be questioned.

  • nivlac
    2,188 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 1:28 PM

    Snaike:
    I would, however, STRENUOUSLY and ZEALOUSLY object to a moderator who has shown a propensity for bias and prejudicial thinking... thereby eliminating both "Snaike" and "Faterson" for the job.

    I disagree, I think both of you guys would easily have the ability to turn on "WGT Mode" when acting on behalf of the site.  What's more important is that both of you are very aware of what makes a forum "good".  I don't even have to explain that, you both know exactly what I mean.

    *Edit* Also, I agree on the supervision point.  Absolutely a must.

  • Snaike
    3,678 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 1:29 PM

    tibbets:
    ... and leave the forums to someone who doesn't have a vested interest to be questioned.
    QFT...

    Absolutely.

  • edchavez
    488 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 1:33 PM

    I HOPE BRETT FAVRE DISCOVERS WGT. IN TWO MORE YEARS, HE'LL DISCOVER THIS, AFTER HE OFFICIALLY RETIRED!

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