Forums

Re: don't like quitters

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 6:07 PM

  Snaike:

  quitting here just does not matter.

  It matters greatly, and repeating that black is white won't make it so. If WGT's intention is for players to spend as much time on the site as possible, that intention won't be fulfilled by driving players away due to the dysfunctional random-drawn multi-player feature. It's as rare as snow in August to complete such a round as originally launched; quitters utterly dominate that section of WGT's site.

  It would be very interesting if WGT could track the number of random-drawn multi-player rounds launched vs. finished; I'm pretty sure the number of players who complete their rounds would be below 50%.

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 6:31 PM

  If indeed the number of players who don't finish their rounds is greater than 50%, then you, Faterson my friend (and others like you who complain that quitting is a huge problem), are in the minority.  It then follows that if you are in the minority, then as per majority rules, nothing need be done about rounds being ended early.  Your voice is heard and understood, it is just not agreed with by the majority.

  I can tell you right now, every top level Master quits rounds .

  Myself?  Yes

  AvatarLee?  Yes

  Nivlac?  Yes

  Iconian?  Yes

  Thunderbird?  Yes

  Gitthe?  Yes

  Salamii?  Yes

  Claremoreblue?  Yes

  Captaincouples?  Yes

  Jarid?  Yes

  Ncviz(when she was here)?  Yes

  The list goes on and on really.  In fact, there isn't a Master I have played with (other than perhaps Marioh) that doesn't quit rounds.  We are the cream of the crop, so to speak, and you know what we think about quitting?  We don't care .  It's never mattered to any  Master I've ever played with.  We all quit multiplayer rounds on a regular basis.  It's so widely accepted a practice that none of us even mention it anymore.  The days of disclaiming about quitting ended sometime last year for most of us who have been around.  We mostly play to the last hole, the last putt, and whoever wants out is free to go, no explanations needed.

  So you see, you really are in the minority with this 'penalty for quitters' thing.  We all hear and understand your point of view on the matter quite clearly.  You aren't the first nor the last, just another voice in the minority choir.  If that fact doesn't sit well with you, I'm sorry.  It's just something you have to live with.

  My suggestion to you, and every other person who has issues with other players quitting rounds, is to simply play Practice rounds in multiplayer mode.  Honestly, the multiplayer system is  in shambles here, and should never have been ranked in the first place.  Inviting people in Practice mode will give you the best chance of completing a game with your fellow players.  If indeed it is the spirit of the game you are after and not the average itself, then you'll find no objection to my suggestion.

  In the meantime, leave this whole issue alone.  WGT is not going to penalize people for quitting rounds.   That would discourage play for too many people, and as we've seen with their policies towards multiple accounts etc., they are more interested in keeping the # of rounds and players high than they are about instituting fair and balanced systems.  They know their multiplayer system is flawed, so they are not really in a position to impose any penalties on anyone.

  This post and Nivlac's post on another thread pretty well sum up and end the debate.  I'm sure people will go on an on about it nevertheless, in vain.

   

   

• Snaike 3,678 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 6:54 PM

                                      ^^^BRAVO, Tibbets, BRAVO!!!^^^

    

   

   

  (And no, it's not a duplicate post!  The names are different!!!  lol)

   

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 7:31 PM

  tibbets:

  It then follows that if you are in the minority, then as per majority rules, nothing need be done about rounds being ended early.

  Not at all. I believe, Tibbets, that I may be a minority in terms of players who currently (or previously used to) participate in random-drawn multi-player rounds, but I am definitely in the majority in the context of WGT's potential customers. And that's all that matters.

  It's pretty clear that the majority of potential WGT customers would like to complete their multi-player rounds if they launch them, instead of being left alone on the course on hole 4 or 6. That this is what the majority perhaps currently practices, doesn't mean that it's what the overall majority wants. That's a crucial difference.

  Now as to the top elite Master players like yourself, Tibbets, you mostly live in a separate universe. Tell me, when was the last time you joined a random-drawn multi-player round? Let me guess: the fall of 2008?    Sorry, I just can't picture Tibbets joining a random-drawn round with 2 Pros & 1 Hack, then be left alone on hole 5 and say, "Oh, never mind! I may have spent the last half-hour with my good friends AvatarLee or Thunderbird instead, but what do I really care! I have all the time in the world, and my days are 36 hours long!"

  Sorry, Tibbets, if I just don't find that believable. The elite Master players usually just play among themselves, and so they have little idea of the concerns that trouble the average site user. It's like conducting a survey among multi-millionaires about what troubles them most about the starving peoples of the world. The sincere answer from most of them, I suspect, would be nothing. And that is, exactly, the attitude displayed in these forums by many top players: in response to the clear anguish expressed by many new players who get repeatedly let down by the quitters, they just say dismissively, "Ah, forget it! Stop whining!"

  tibbets:

  It's never mattered to any to Master I've ever played with.

  Yes, in your special and mostly isolated universe. You'd be surprised, Tibbets! I've met lots and lots of Master players who were incensed by the constant quitting. Off the top of my head, let me name Soulcatcher, TheSpaghettiKid, and even Andyson who just posted a beat-dead-horse smiley to a parallel thread.

  tibbets:

  It's just something you have to live with.

  Not at all. I'm firmly convinced that the reduction of the number of quitters is in the clear interest of the majority of WGT's potential customers. It can only be beneficial for this golf game.

  tibbets:

  My suggestion to you, and every other person who has issues with other players quitting rounds, is to simply play Practice rounds in multiplayer mode.

  That isn't a workable solution in my view. I do like the challenge of trying to improve my average score with each round. For example, this may give me the opportunity to get closer to the Master tier one fine day. If I accepted your suggestion, I could never get there, as I mostly only play multi-player rounds.

  Also, Tibbets, on European mornings, when most of America is asleep, it can be pretty difficult to get any playing partners for multi-player rounds, so further limiting the available selection by pre-selecting "Practice Round" would deteriorate the situation even more.

  A good way to avoid quitters is the Ladders site. But WGT shouldn't be shifting its responsibilities away onto Mark Holliday's shoulders who's been delivering tremendous amounts of work to fix, with his Ladders site, something that should be fixed right here on the main site.

  tibbets:

  WGT is not going to penalize people for quitting rounds.

  You must have missed the feedback from WGT staff, most recently this one by WGTadmin. WGT clearly said they are going to address the quitters issue, and we should applaud them for doing so.

  

  tibbets:

  That would discourage play for too many people

  Not at all. The penalties are only proposed for multi-player rounds; you could still quit your single-player rounds all you want. Now if the penalties deter the current multi-player quitters, that would be a fabulous thing! Because that would probably inspire them to finish their rounds (not abandon the whole golf game, as you suggest).

  Even more importantly: the number of those who'd be discouraged would be dwarfed by the number of site users who'd be ecstatic to see the multi-player section of the site fixed so that joining random-drawn rounds there becomes a joy instead of the endlessly repeated letdown.

• nivlac 2,188 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 7:39 PM

  Faterson:

  And that is, exactly, the attitude displayed in these forums by many top players: in response to the clear anguish expressed by many new players who get repeatedly let down by the quitters, they just say dismissively, "Ah, forget it! Stop whining!"

  I think you've misinterpreted us a little there.  That's not quite what I meant.  We aren't fussing about the fact THAT you complain.  You have every right to complain about things that you don't like.  You made your initial complaint however long ago and even followed it up a few times.  Nothing wrong with that at all.

  The dismissive attitude that you experience comes about because WGT has already said, "ok we'll do something".  At that point, I feel there's nothing left to be discussed.  They acknowledged the valid complaint, so let's wait for them to do something about it.  Instead we see the argument continue and complaints repeated two and three and nine times over in just as many threads WHILE we wait for them to do something.  Do you see what I'm getting at here?

  It's very much a relevant issue for a lot of players, but it's also a dead one because no amount of additional discussion will change the fact that WGT has already told us they're working on it.  So why are we cluttering up the forums with extra discussion about what types of players like to finish their rounds and who plays multiplayer and who doesn't?

  We've gotten our answer for now.  It's not being enacted with the speed that some people may wish, but they are aware of it.  Can we not leave it at that and just wait until they deliver something?

  In other words, I do hope they eventually come up with a system that makes you 100% happy and willing to play multiplayer without any worries.  I will do my best to make sure they do and will support any fair system they put in place, but until they do, can we agree to simply stop talking about it?  All arguments have been presented, have they not?

  Then we can fuss and complain all day long when the system they (eventually) put in place sucks too. =)

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 7:40 PM

  nivlac:

  At that point, I feel there's nothing left to be discussed. 

  That's how you perceive it. You know, I started collecting those quitters penalties suggestions back in early August. I find I still have something new to add to that post after all these weeks. For example, rlsj13 expressed the very valid score extrapolation suggestion only 2 days ago.

  nivlac:

  Instead we see the argument continue and complaints repeated two and three and nine times over in just as many threads WHILE we wait for them to do something.

  As to today's barrage of quitting posts, you can thank Snaike for that. I had made two (2) brief replies to Marioh in a way that did not violate the Boilerplate Nonsense Challenge. Snaike's response was to start bombarding numerous forum threads tonight with his boilerplate quitters replies, in clear violation of the BNC. I dislike that just as you do, Nivlac; please, if you can, get Snaike back to respecting BNC. I'm more than willing to do so likewise.

  As to there being numerous forum threads on the quitting issue, it's been said many times before: don't blame forum users; blame the absence of forum moderators. It's crazy trying to run forums on a popular site such as WGT without any moderators. (And capable volunteers have offered their services for the unpaid post, primarily you.) A forum moderator would have long ago merged all quitters threads into one, and would have left only that single thread open for quitters discussion; no one could have objected to that, and no one would need to take any Boilerplate Oaths.

  nivlac:

  Can we not leave it at that and just wait until they deliver something?

  Yes, we can.   That's what the Boilerplate Nonsense Challenge that I'm advocating is all about. Please get Snaike back to respecting it, if you can. And others might want to take the Boilerplate Oath, too, folks like Marioh & Tibbets.  

  nivlac:

  All arguments have been presented, have they not?

  In all likelihood, yes. In rare, exceptional cases, though, someone may come up with something interesting and new that has not been discussed in our context in the last few months. See rlsj13's post.

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 8:11 PM

  You really have no clue what you are talking about Faterson.  I have played more rounds than all the other people in this thread combined.  Hell, I've quit more multiplayer rounds than all the other people in this thread combined have finished.  What I say, I say out of experience from being here since the beginning of the game.   You are lost in your own paradigm, and have forgotten that I was once where you are now, long ago.  There isn't an issue in this game, top to bottom, that I haven't faced or dealt with ten times over.

  Look at the most of the top players that I listed above.  Most of them have been here since the beginning as well, and have also faced all the same issues I have.  It's no coincidence that we share the point of view we do about quitting.  It's not just because we're top players:  We became top players along the way.  Before that, we were all in the same boat, joining random games, making new friends, finding all the inconsistencies etc. 

  It's a growing process here for players at WGT, as there are many facets to the game.  You learn things along the way and over time.  You are at a particular development stage of your experience here.  You have a long way to go yet.  You still have another tier of experience to explore. You have 800+ more forum posts than you have ranked rounds completed!  Spend more time playing, and you'll see what I mean.  Until then, you are coming from a point of relative ignorance and self-indulgence, well-spoken as it may be.

  Understanding this point is critical to finding the humility that is necessary to drop this issue.  When we say it's a dead one, we mean it.  It was a dead point before you even came along.  WGT has said since before you came that they were looking into resolving this issue.  Nothing has changed, and there is no reason to expect that it will any time soon. 

  So really, there's nothing more to be said about it.  No new values have erupted here from the endless threads about quitting.  It's the same old , same old.  That is why it is End Of Story .

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 9:10 PM

  tibbets:

  No new values have erupted here from the endless threads about quitting.  It's the same old , same old.

  I disagree. See that score extrapolation suggestion made by rlsj13 only 2 days ago. If that is "same old, same old", Tibbets, then please post a link to these forums where that same suggestion has been made before. I'm pretty confident you won't be able to post such a link, because the suggestion, in this form, seems to be new. And it's a good, workable suggestion.  

  tibbets:

  Nothing has changed, and there is no reason to expect that it will any time soon.

  I'm not that pessimistic. In fact, I'm pretty confident WGT will introduce some sort of anti-quitting measure in the very next product release, whether that be in September or to celebrate the 1-year anniversary in October. We might be pleasantly surprised!  

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 9:20 PM

  You're splitting hairs.  On an abstract and fundamental level, there are no new ideas regarding this issue.  The basic common denominators are sorted into 2 camps. One is the camp that says penalize the score in some shape or fashion.  The other is the camp that says make them finish the round.  There are hybrids of the 2 that float around as well.

  As i said before no new values have come to play, just an ever-increasing addition of decimal places.  What that adds up to is more and more about less and less.  Eventually you'll have everything there is to have about absolutely nothing. We're pretty close to that point right now.

  With regards to your optimism:  Just remember, it took them 8 months to give us putters that had adjustable distances, after there was an equal amount of forum posts all crying out in unanimity for it.  Oh, and the adjustable pin positions that were promised 'in the coming months'....11 months ago . 

  With all the coding errors, the lag issues, the advent of giving us new courses and new tournament types, a meaningful rating system ,and a new tier,  I'd say they have plenty on their plate already.   How about IP and age verification first, eh?

  I wouldn't hold your breath.

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Sat, Sep 19 2009 10:04 PM

  Tibbets, I believe that one of the foremost tasks of any serious-minded discussion is to help clarifying the issues. As an issue is discussed, it becomes clearer and clearer, and possible solutions start getting a more specific shape. That is exactly what discussions are supposed to achieve. So, I for one believe a post like the one collecting all specific quitters penalties suggestions may be useful for WGT when they'll be contemplating which of these measures (or something similar) they're going to implement to deter quitters.

  As to being optimistic or pessimistic in our expectations, you're definitely correct we have all reasons to be pessimistic. Variable pin positions were said to be imminent a year ago, and there still aren't any. However, there are optimistic signs, too. I remember how, prior to the fabulous mid-August product update, folks were saying, "Ah, there'll never be any multi-player games allowing us to choose any course, back 9, front 9, or full 18! WGT's servers just couldn't possibly handle all that!"

  Boom! In mid-August, all that pessimism was suddenly proven wrong, and we got all the multi-player options (and much more) that we could possibly wish for. In a similar way, WGT may soon get around to resolving the quitters, variable pin locations, and more stroke-play courses issues. The 1st anniversary of WGT's public Beta would be a wonderful occasion for it, wouldn't it?