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Re: Just curious.....

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Sun, Aug 23 2015 11:12 PM (6 replies)
  • LuckySkreet
    611 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2015 6:51 AM

    Does WGT have dedicated servers for "play only"....or do they just route everything via a single platform?  With all the issues of late, was curious if the folks who just sit there for hours and hours banging out videos. surveys...etc  .....etc..etc..... were dragging down servers to the point of overload or failure?  I'm certainly NOT a infrastructure guru at all....  but I would imagine all the excess "non play" traffic would have a toll on the system, thus leading to slow loads,  crashes, disconnects, "blue screens"....etc...etc...etc...   Anyone?

    -Danny- 

  • bubbsboy
    6,879 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2015 7:08 AM

    Good question and i raised something similar before reg all the space took up with the million or so level 1 to 5 hacks, surely it must affect something.

    Bubbs

  • turfsand
    1,773 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2015 7:53 AM

    this is certainly a valid question, any computer guys have an answer?

  • PaulTon
    10,731 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2015 8:10 AM

    Here you go, posted by PhilEaglesFan here. It's an interesting thread...

    anonymous:
    The inability of the servers that WGT has chosen has never been able to carry the load .

    So, I found this gem recently and before I knew it I was about to hijack another thread in an attempt to help make some sense (because it's frustrating to me when people say very wrong things like this) when I caught myself.  So here I am instead with a new thread.

    Welcome aboard.  The exits are here, here and here.

    I warn you now.  This is long.  If reading comprehension is difficult for you, turn back now or abandon all hope.

    This is my attempt to describe, in layman's terms, what's actually going on with this whole internet and server thing in a clear and easy-to-understand manner.  You're welcome to sit back, enjoy the read and participate in this discussion.  You're also welcome to move along quietly if this doesn't interest you.  What you are notwelcome to be is an idiot or an antagonist.  So, with all of that said...

    Generally speaking, of course...

    This game (like most websites and web apps) is/are spread across multiple application (or app) servers.  What's an application server, you ask?  Well, these are the servers on which the game and the website run.  App servers physically execute the code.  They are typically rented, in quantities, from big server farms like Akamai, but there are many other companies.

    There are different sets of application servers for the website and the gameclient.  This is why the website can be down and the game can still work.  That doesn't happen often, but it does happen.  I've witnessed it first hand, albeit a long time ago.

    Now, we're not even counting any potential additional servers they have setup for any backend uses such as databases, CMS tools, etc. There are always additional backend app servers.  What's the back-end, exactly?  That's all the stuff that goes on that you don't see.  For example, you don't see when WGT updates the database(s) with your scores.  You also don't see them process their nightly feeds.  You know how they have short downtimes occasionally, but you come back online and literally nothing is different?  They were updating their feed code or perhaps adding a new feature to the backend tool that helps them design and set-up tournaments.  Maybe they were laying a foundation for something coming in the next release. But continuing on....

    There are also any number of supporting content servers to backup the app servers.  These are, surprisingly enough, from where you get your game content.  The game photos, the assets, the clubs, the balls, the avatars, everything you download to your browser, everything that you see that makes this game (and website) all lies on these various content servers.  That picture of BP #18 green that you need for the next shot?  Content server say whaaat.

    There's always a content server within a few hundred miles of you, probably even closer  (unless your country does not internet, in which case, how is it that you are reading this?).  That is basic internet efficiency.  Don't go long when you can go short. Makes sense, right?

    So in reality, you're very rarely communicating with WGT's own content servers, except in two circumstances:

    • NO content server has what you need (for whatever reason, usually a rarity). 
    • You live in WGT's backyard and thus are actually closer to them than the closest content servers.

    There is also a possibility that WGT keeps their own content server's IP private and prevents any direct consumer access to it.   It is possible only the network of content servers is permitted to communicate with it. That would be much more safe and secure.

    So, instead of communicating with WGT directly you're more than likely communicating with any number of these mirror content servers that are strategically spread across the country and throughout the internet capable world.

    Here's a very simplistic, but realistic take on how a single "roundtrip" might work:

    Your computer makes a request to WGT.  Again, let's say you need that BP #18 green photo because it's not in your local cache.

    Out goes your computer's request into the big bad land of the internets.  Your request gets sent to your ISP who then more or less redirects the request to your local content server.  Content Server looks at your computer's request and says,

    "I see you need this green photo for BP #18.  Well you're in luck.... I've got that asset / file you need right here.  No need to talk to WGT's content servers all the way over in San Francisco for that.  Let me get it for you."

    And the friendly content server gives you what you need, because it can do it faster locally than WGT can from San Francisco.

    On their own, content servers will periodically update themselves from WGT's own content server or when WGT forcibly says, "hey all Content Servers, update this right now".  This would happen when they release a new course and they need to make the new course files available to us.

    Now that you are a content and application server guru, let's address our poor quoted fellow from above.

    Every time you load the game or website in your browser there's this thing called theload balancer (not a person, it's software).  The load balancer's primary job is to chaperone you to the least congested app server.  Timeout for a second on this point...

    ... do you long time guys remember back in the day, the discussions about psj-05, psj-02 and people bouncing around servers thinking one was better than the other. Those were the application servers.  FYI, psj stands for San Jose. Alright, time-in.

    WGT likely didn't write their own load balancer.  There's already software for that, so we can assume it works as expected.

    To give some perspective, my company's servers run about about 15%-25% load at any given time and we're pretty large.  We're closer to 50%-60% load during the holiday season but that is still way under red line.  We service a much, much larger volume of traffic per day than WGT could ever hope.  As per Alexa.com, about 1.3 million more unique views per day.  We have *8* application servers for the entire front-end website.  That's it.  8 servers handling 1.3 million people a day with hundreds, sometimes thousands of requests coming in to our app servers each minute.  All handled with relative ease. 

    Server rental isn't cheap, but it's chump change in terms of overall software development expense.  Let me remind you that WGT has a freakin' helicopter. Servers are no expense here. Undercutting your app server budget would be suicide and contrary to every company's goal.

    I'm just guessing on this, but I would imagine, speaking front-end only, that a single application server could probably handle WGT and it's 18,000 (wow that's smaller than I thought) unique visitors per day in its entirely.  Maybe, maybe not, either way it's moot because having only one app server would be quite foolish.

    We know that they have more than one application server.  The browser's developer console will tell us that (unless you're using IE7/IE8 in which case I pray for your soul).

    It's not their servers, it's not their game.  None of it.   No matter how many unqualified people attempt to tell you that. 

    There may be congestion between the many OTHER non-WGT servers your data packet or request has to traverse before it even gets to one of WGT's servers.  Someone may be dDos'ing the hell out of one of the major hubs that your data just happens to need to pass through.  That'll choke you pretty good.  However, it'll look like it's WGT's fault.  In reality it's actually AT&T's fault or some hacker in another part of the world who has a vendetta against the internet and the people who use it.

    The point is it could be anything.  It's the internet.  It's wild.  Millions of non-moving parts, except for some old hard drives maybe.  Data flying everywhere at light speed.  Numerous mitigating factors to consider. The trucks are bursting through the tubes at light speed people!  

    Now sure, one of WGT's application servers might hiccup and need a reboot now and then, but that's few and far between and is no cause for alarm.  You always put yourself in a position where, in an emergency, you can shutdown an application server or two (or half in some cases) and force the entire load onto the rest of your app servers.  And you're typically still handling this with ease.

    Companies that demand 24/7 up-time will shut down a couple of application servers at a time, deploy code, restart those servers, then shutdown two more and continue that process until all servers are updated.  This is the way you have to do it if you demand 100% up-time.  After that you bust the application server caches and out goes the new code.

    None of this impacts your computer's ability (or inability) to display local flash graphics in a consistently smooth manner.  You'll need to ask your GPU, your CPU, Flash itself and your other installed software about that.  If you don't have a GPU, then we've probably answered your question about why your meter sucks. Forget all the rest of it.

    If you do have a GPU (an actual card that you installed and can uninstall, that isn't 15 years old... and isn't Intel Accelerated Graphics, which is usually a joke) then you better have the flash hardware acceleration setting turned on, otherwise you're not even using your GPU to render WGT.  And I think we can all agree that's just a sad situation.  Please remember to RESTART your browser if you change your hardware acceleration setting in order for it to take effect.  This will not solve everyone's problem.

    If you do all that, and try it in full screen mode, and low flash quality and if it still sucks, it's probably flashes fault.  Perhaps your GPU is really not up to the task or, more likely some combination of both.

    I play this game on lowest flash settings using the full screen mode with hardware acceleration on. I pretty much can't play in non full-screen view.  The meter problems become more problematic then (which I've yet to really figure out why, perhaps not a native resolution.)

    I'm using a rig I built myself 6(?) years ago.  It has an AMD Phenom 9950 Quad-Core 2.6 GHz CPU in a fairly average mobo. The GPU is a Hawk Radeon 5750.  I run 32-bit on Win7.  I have multiple IDE hard drives.  No SATA hard drives.  My windows experience index is a paltry 5.3

    This isn't exactly top of the line stuff here, but my WGT experience is mostly decent overall and my meter is usually quite smooth.   I don't have to run external programs or manage a bunch of windows processes and background services to improve the meter.  However, if I do notice a problem, my processes and services are the first thing I'm checking. 

    Rule #1: Always assume it's you until you can definitively prove it's not.

    I use regular old Firefox (latest) when I play.  I frequently stream music from Sirius or YouTube and chat in IRC all while playing with no performance drop.  The meter consistency doesn't change when I turn the music stream on and off, because the meter is not affected by the internet connection.

    However, I'm not immune to the occasional meter blip either, but almost never does it actually cost me strokes (it's really not that bad or that often).  I also don't play more than 2 or 3 single-player games or more than 1 multiplayer game in a row.  The longer Flash is open, the slower and more bloated it becomes. 

    I know, I know,  your video card runs the newest COD at 100+ frames in elite settings (don't know if that's real, don't call me on it).  This and that are not same.  COD is Direct3D/OPENGL.  This is... wanh wanh wanh ...Adobe Flash; pushed to the max.

    Now I'm not saying this is exactly how WGT runs, because I don't know exactly how WGT runs, but I've been around the block enough to know the gist of how this process works for most software development teams and where the similarities lie.  I might be off on the exact numbers, but I am definitely not off on the concept.  Trust me folks.  It all just sounds a little too true to be false, doesn't it?

    ---

    Once again.  Thanks for listening and reading. I tried to write this in a semi-entertaining way, since it is basically just an information dump.  Maybe you learned a thing or two.  If you did, that's fantastic.  If you didn't, then you probably already knew this stuff anyway.  If you want to learn more, ask.  I don't portend to know it all, and will immediately tell you when I don't know.

    So, let's blame WGT for what's actually their fault, like our camera situation right now (angry fist).  Let's not send them up the creek for things for which they aren't responsible.  Let's be better people, better educated, better forum.

    I told you I was good at long posts.  Insomnia be damned.

    Take care all.  Hit 'em well.

  • jayw4862
    3,364 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2015 8:32 AM

    LuckySkreet:
    Does WGT have dedicated servers for "play only"

    Not sure about "play only", but they do use 10 servers (that I know of). They're gs01, gs02, gs03, and so on (which I assume mean game server).

  • LuckySkreet
    611 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2015 9:18 AM
    Good reads all.... Good info.......thanks. I guess issues can be almost anywhere....at anytime; be it, marginal equipment on my side, low/slow internet connects, unreliable owned or leased servers and/or (app servers) as mentioned. Just thought it may be a valid inquiry, based on several post of late regarding "disconnects, blue screens... etc etc." Certainly believable info regarding all the routing-- re-routing, and multiple server/app locations. But, considering that I may be experiencing a blue screen issue, and many others experiencing the same, each having a individual geographical location, and each certainly not utilizing the same routing and servers...... thought it may be something common to WGT. Very much appreciate the info..... again, good reads.... -Danny-
  • Dougie4042
    4,410 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2015 11:12 PM

    PaulTon:

    Here you go, posted by PhilEaglesFan here. It's an interesting thread...

    anonymous:
    The inability of the servers that WGT has chosen has never been able to carry the load .

    So, I found this gem recently and before I knew it I was about to hijack another thread in an attempt to help make some sense (because it's frustrating to me when people say very wrong things like this) when I caught myself.  So here I am instead with a new thread.

    Welcome aboard.  The exits are here, here and here.

    I warn you now.  This is long.  If reading comprehension is difficult for you, turn back now or abandon all hope.

    This is my attempt to describe, in layman's terms, what's actually going on with this whole internet and server thing in a clear and easy-to-understand manner.  You're welcome to sit back, enjoy the read and participate in this discussion.  You're also welcome to move along quietly if this doesn't interest you.  What you are notwelcome to be is an idiot or an antagonist.  So, with all of that said...

    Generally speaking, of course...

    This game (like most websites and web apps) is/are spread across multiple application (or app) servers.  What's an application server, you ask?  Well, these are the servers on which the game and the website run.  App servers physically execute the code.  They are typically rented, in quantities, from big server farms like Akamai, but there are many other companies.

    There are different sets of application servers for the website and the gameclient.  This is why the website can be down and the game can still work.  That doesn't happen often, but it does happen.  I've witnessed it first hand, albeit a long time ago.

    Now, we're not even counting any potential additional servers they have setup for any backend uses such as databases, CMS tools, etc. There are always additional backend app servers.  What's the back-end, exactly?  That's all the stuff that goes on that you don't see.  For example, you don't see when WGT updates the database(s) with your scores.  You also don't see them process their nightly feeds.  You know how they have short downtimes occasionally, but you come back online and literally nothing is different?  They were updating their feed code or perhaps adding a new feature to the backend tool that helps them design and set-up tournaments.  Maybe they were laying a foundation for something coming in the next release. But continuing on....

    There are also any number of supporting content servers to backup the app servers.  These are, surprisingly enough, from where you get your game content.  The game photos, the assets, the clubs, the balls, the avatars, everything you download to your browser, everything that you see that makes this game (and website) all lies on these various content servers.  That picture of BP #18 green that you need for the next shot?  Content server say whaaat.

    There's always a content server within a few hundred miles of you, probably even closer  (unless your country does not internet, in which case, how is it that you are reading this?).  That is basic internet efficiency.  Don't go long when you can go short. Makes sense, right?

    So in reality, you're very rarely communicating with WGT's own content servers, except in two circumstances:

    • NO content server has what you need (for whatever reason, usually a rarity). 
    • You live in WGT's backyard and thus are actually closer to them than the closest content servers.

    There is also a possibility that WGT keeps their own content server's IP private and prevents any direct consumer access to it.   It is possible only the network of content servers is permitted to communicate with it. That would be much more safe and secure.

    So, instead of communicating with WGT directly you're more than likely communicating with any number of these mirror content servers that are strategically spread across the country and throughout the internet capable world.

    Here's a very simplistic, but realistic take on how a single "roundtrip" might work:

    Your computer makes a request to WGT.  Again, let's say you need that BP #18 green photo because it's not in your local cache.

    Out goes your computer's request into the big bad land of the internets.  Your request gets sent to your ISP who then more or less redirects the request to your local content server.  Content Server looks at your computer's request and says,

    "I see you need this green photo for BP #18.  Well you're in luck.... I've got that asset / file you need right here.  No need to talk to WGT's content servers all the way over in San Francisco for that.  Let me get it for you."

    And the friendly content server gives you what you need, because it can do it faster locally than WGT can from San Francisco.

    On their own, content servers will periodically update themselves from WGT's own content server or when WGT forcibly says, "hey all Content Servers, update this right now".  This would happen when they release a new course and they need to make the new course files available to us.

    Now that you are a content and application server guru, let's address our poor quoted fellow from above.

    Every time you load the game or website in your browser there's this thing called theload balancer (not a person, it's software).  The load balancer's primary job is to chaperone you to the least congested app server.  Timeout for a second on this point...

    ... do you long time guys remember back in the day, the discussions about psj-05, psj-02 and people bouncing around servers thinking one was better than the other. Those were the application servers.  FYI, psj stands for San Jose. Alright, time-in.

    WGT likely didn't write their own load balancer.  There's already software for that, so we can assume it works as expected.

    To give some perspective, my company's servers run about about 15%-25% load at any given time and we're pretty large.  We're closer to 50%-60% load during the holiday season but that is still way under red line.  We service a much, much larger volume of traffic per day than WGT could ever hope.  As per Alexa.com, about 1.3 million more unique views per day.  We have *8* application servers for the entire front-end website.  That's it.  8 servers handling 1.3 million people a day with hundreds, sometimes thousands of requests coming in to our app servers each minute.  All handled with relative ease. 

    Server rental isn't cheap, but it's chump change in terms of overall software development expense.  Let me remind you that WGT has a freakin' helicopter. Servers are no expense here. Undercutting your app server budget would be suicide and contrary to every company's goal.

    I'm just guessing on this, but I would imagine, speaking front-end only, that a single application server could probably handle WGT and it's 18,000 (wow that's smaller than I thought) unique visitors per day in its entirely.  Maybe, maybe not, either way it's moot because having only one app server would be quite foolish.

    We know that they have more than one application server.  The browser's developer console will tell us that (unless you're using IE7/IE8 in which case I pray for your soul).

    It's not their servers, it's not their game.  None of it.   No matter how many unqualified people attempt to tell you that. 

    There may be congestion between the many OTHER non-WGT servers your data packet or request has to traverse before it even gets to one of WGT's servers.  Someone may be dDos'ing the hell out of one of the major hubs that your data just happens to need to pass through.  That'll choke you pretty good.  However, it'll look like it's WGT's fault.  In reality it's actually AT&T's fault or some hacker in another part of the world who has a vendetta against the internet and the people who use it.

    The point is it could be anything.  It's the internet.  It's wild.  Millions of non-moving parts, except for some old hard drives maybe.  Data flying everywhere at light speed.  Numerous mitigating factors to consider. The trucks are bursting through the tubes at light speed people!  

    Now sure, one of WGT's application servers might hiccup and need a reboot now and then, but that's few and far between and is no cause for alarm.  You always put yourself in a position where, in an emergency, you can shutdown an application server or two (or half in some cases) and force the entire load onto the rest of your app servers.  And you're typically still handling this with ease.

    Companies that demand 24/7 up-time will shut down a couple of application servers at a time, deploy code, restart those servers, then shutdown two more and continue that process until all servers are updated.  This is the way you have to do it if you demand 100% up-time.  After that you bust the application server caches and out goes the new code.

    None of this impacts your computer's ability (or inability) to display local flash graphics in a consistently smooth manner.  You'll need to ask your GPU, your CPU, Flash itself and your other installed software about that.  If you don't have a GPU, then we've probably answered your question about why your meter sucks. Forget all the rest of it.

    If you do have a GPU (an actual card that you installed and can uninstall, that isn't 15 years old... and isn't Intel Accelerated Graphics, which is usually a joke) then you better have the flash hardware acceleration setting turned on, otherwise you're not even using your GPU to render WGT.  And I think we can all agree that's just a sad situation.  Please remember to RESTART your browser if you change your hardware acceleration setting in order for it to take effect.  This will not solve everyone's problem.

    If you do all that, and try it in full screen mode, and low flash quality and if it still sucks, it's probably flashes fault.  Perhaps your GPU is really not up to the task or, more likely some combination of both.

    I play this game on lowest flash settings using the full screen mode with hardware acceleration on. I pretty much can't play in non full-screen view.  The meter problems become more problematic then (which I've yet to really figure out why, perhaps not a native resolution.)

    I'm using a rig I built myself 6(?) years ago.  It has an AMD Phenom 9950 Quad-Core 2.6 GHz CPU in a fairly average mobo. The GPU is a Hawk Radeon 5750.  I run 32-bit on Win7.  I have multiple IDE hard drives.  No SATA hard drives.  My windows experience index is a paltry 5.3

    This isn't exactly top of the line stuff here, but my WGT experience is mostly decent overall and my meter is usually quite smooth.   I don't have to run external programs or manage a bunch of windows processes and background services to improve the meter.  However, if I do notice a problem, my processes and services are the first thing I'm checking. 

    Rule #1: Always assume it's you until you can definitively prove it's not.

    I use regular old Firefox (latest) when I play.  I frequently stream music from Sirius or YouTube and chat in IRC all while playing with no performance drop.  The meter consistency doesn't change when I turn the music stream on and off, because the meter is not affected by the internet connection.

    However, I'm not immune to the occasional meter blip either, but almost never does it actually cost me strokes (it's really not that bad or that often).  I also don't play more than 2 or 3 single-player games or more than 1 multiplayer game in a row.  The longer Flash is open, the slower and more bloated it becomes. 

    I know, I know,  your video card runs the newest COD at 100+ frames in elite settings (don't know if that's real, don't call me on it).  This and that are not same.  COD is Direct3D/OPENGL.  This is... wanh wanh wanh ...Adobe Flash; pushed to the max.

    Now I'm not saying this is exactly how WGT runs, because I don't know exactly how WGT runs, but I've been around the block enough to know the gist of how this process works for most software development teams and where the similarities lie.  I might be off on the exact numbers, but I am definitely not off on the concept.  Trust me folks.  It all just sounds a little too true to be false, doesn't it?

    ---

    Once again.  Thanks for listening and reading. I tried to write this in a semi-entertaining way, since it is basically just an information dump.  Maybe you learned a thing or two.  If you did, that's fantastic.  If you didn't, then you probably already knew this stuff anyway.  If you want to learn more, ask.  I don't portend to know it all, and will immediately tell you when I don't know.

    So, let's blame WGT for what's actually their fault, like our camera situation right now (angry fist).  Let's not send them up the creek for things for which they aren't responsible.  Let's be better people, better educated, better forum.

    I told you I was good at long posts.  Insomnia be damned.

    Take care all.  Hit 'em well.

    Again, I've got nothing here...

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