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High ding rate = cheating?

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 12:44 PM

  AgentBrown123:

  WigerToods2010:

  I'm with AB on this.

  Laughable to think wgt would let it be known exactly how they arrived at their decision. To what end, to allow others to circumvent any deterrents that are in place?

  "Oh here you go Mr Cheat, here's how we know that you are a scumbag - don't forget to use that info when you open another account"

  For me the Email that's been posted is just a poorly worded piece of flannel from those in charge.

  Whatever you're doing wgt - keep doing it.

  Bravo, someone gets it :)

  Or not, as the case may be.  ;-)

  As previously stated, what they can know about any individual computer is limited.  I suspect they can monitor anything flash-related that occurs within the game client itself, but are unable to detect a cheat engine or packet editor on an individual computer that's being used to play the game.

  Otherwise, why would they need to ask what cheat program was (allegedly) being used?

  The logical conclusion is that they arrived at their decision by their stated criterion and nothing more.

• AgentBrown123 907 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 12:48 PM

  mkg335:

  AgentBrown123:

  WigerToods2010:

  I'm with AB on this.

  Laughable to think wgt would let it be known exactly how they arrived at their decision. To what end, to allow others to circumvent any deterrents that are in place?

  "Oh here you go Mr Cheat, here's how we know that you are a scumbag - don't forget to use that info when you open another account"

  For me the Email that's been posted is just a poorly worded piece of flannel from those in charge.

  Whatever you're doing wgt - keep doing it.

  Bravo, someone gets it :)

  Or not, as the case may be.  ;-)

  As previously stated, what they can know about any individual computer is limited.  I suspect they can monitor anything flash-related that occurs within the game client itself, but are unable to detect a cheat engine or packet editor on an individual computer that's being used to play the game.

  Otherwise, why would they need to ask what cheat program was (allegedly) being used?

  The logical conclusion is that they arrived at their decision by their stated criterion and nothing more.

  Hey I respect everyone's opinion but I'm just wondering where you get your opinons/thoughts from... can you back it up with any substance? Links,  quotes from previous threads etc. :)

  You threw some jargon out there that makes it sound like you're an expert of sorts. "What they know about any one computer is limited"... "I suspect they can monitor anything flash related that occurs within the game client"

  So you think what they know about each computer is limited but yet the game is flash based and you think they can monitor anything flash based. You countered your own argument because in your words the game is flash based. Which it is

  Regards

• garyk49 2,330 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 1:07 PM

  mkg335:

  As previously stated, what they can know about any individual computer is limited.  I suspect they can monitor anything flash-related that occurs within the game client itself, but are unable to detect a cheat engine or packet editor on an individual computer that's being used to play the game.

  Otherwise, why would they need to ask what cheat program was (allegedly) being used?

  The logical conclusion is that they arrived at their decision by their stated criterion and nothing more.

  Mk, or anyone else for that matter.  Go look at my posts in the security sweep thread.  It will give you some information as to what is out there to combat cheat programs.  I am both a golfer and gamer, you would be amazed at what can be done out there in the gaming world. After all this is a game.  We are lucky, we don't have to have punkbuster or some other program on our computer to even get on the site.  Most major gaming sites do.  You can not download the required and it will let you play singleplayer, but you will not get into anything multiplayer.

  I understand AB's point.  A program may be able to detect a cheat, but not know which one. Hence the question which one are you using.  Maybe trying to get more information on how to recognize different programs.  Maybe none or maybe one they don't have information on yet.  New things are created everyday.

  The possibility exists that what was told is not even the reason.  Remember we are talking about WGT. 

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 1:28 PM

  See below.....Pretty much sums it up.  Both guys are at least savvy (as in very) when it comes to IT stuff, and it's what they think.  EDIT: Mark and I would not pretend to be that clued up IT wise.  One of the reasons this process took so long is I needed to get opinion.  What we all saw was things not adding up - hence this thread eventually triggering.  Not my idea this thread starting when it did, but I was not asking for it not to.....

  jayw4862:

  AgentBrown123:

  German player starting with the letter T

  This guy? Why would he be still shown as the winner (this from today's news - 7/21/16)? What was the prize? If there's a monetary value, a legitimate player has been robbed. Is this an effort to save a few bucks?

  

  I guess someone forgot to "confirm" the non-sweepstakes winners.

  On the subject of Q. I downloaded the stream(s) and have watched several times, read the chat, and have the email from WGT. My questions are this:

  Why keep asking what cheat program he uses when he keeps saying he doesn't use any? 

  Why let the judges of his "chance to show live play" be 2 "at best" OK players themselves? 

  Why not do a simple share screen on Skype? 1/10th the lag/disconnects.

   

  The top players (myself definitely excluded) can ding a starter ball over 40% of the time (tee shots and irons/wedges).

  I watched a few top player's random videos and counted, including and excluding putts, dings. The lowest was 66%. The highest was 90%. Even averaged out, that's 78%. The 40% ding rate is BS, even if it's based solely on approach shots. 

  I agree that it would too easy to manipulate any program to not ding. Maybe that's why ever since this security broom came out, any missed ding is magnified. 

  This SS can't monitor processes on someone's PC. If it could, Q wouldn't have been asked countless times "what program do you use, so we can look into/add it"? The SS process monitor would know, and there'd be no need to ask.

  Funny how the people doing the real damage to Topgolf are the black market credit sellers, and they're still thriving!! Cumulatively, they probably come close to making as much per month as Topgolf does from Pro Shop sales. Maybe because the major sellers are old school, and friends with the popo, they get the old "turn a blind eye" treatment, or a private warning to slack off for a bit. 

  Be wise if everyone used Topgolf's customer service/contact us option to deal with questionable aspects of this game, and not WGT's, which is evidently clueless, untruthful, and/or biased.

  PS... I use AHK (auto hotkey), too. I have to wear my eye patch for a few more weeks, and the hotkey opens my ruler. Just in case the SS program monitor spots it :-)

  VEM me up. I can half see at the moment, anyway :-)

   

  fatdan:

  This will be my last go at this, a lot of valid points have been brought up, and some very good discussion both for and against...

  The key point IMO is being overlooked at this point...

  Jim can tell you that before this even started Tom posted some RG scorecards on the CC forum, in fact a lot of them....

  What caught my eye was the ADTP, it was so close on 2 of them my very 1st thought was "NO f'n way", this guy is either 1 in a million or using CE, end of thought, I don't play RG's so I will let them worry about it, if he is cheating they will get him eventually....that and I like Tom. He gets the benefit of the doubt from me because he was a unbelievably good player when he was a legend so why not now!

  So when I heard his account was closed I felt bad for him, but I wasn't surprised, that is not until other CC members started getting involved and believed he was wrongly accused, so I somewhat grudgingly looked at the correspondence fully expecting to see something like:

  Tom: For some reason my account is closed is something wrong?

  WGT: Don't even go there dude, you were cheating, you know you were, we have the data to prove you were that we got from our "super duper sweeps software", so don't even pretend to be innocent!

  And frankly, had I seen that it would have been good enough for me, end of story!!!!

  Instead what I see is communication after communication that in short say, "We don't know what you were doing because you won't admit it, but we are sure you were doing something"...WTF

  Eventually they accuse him of using an "auto dinger", again WTF!

  WGTadmin himself admitted on these very forums when the grid dots and meters went crazy after an update that they had to shut down the program that ran with the power meter to counter auto ding programs, despite what you've read in this thread you can't show me 1 ADer that dings at 80%, they get close enough to it to help a player who just plain can't play, but they DO NOT ding at 80%, so why in the world would that even be considered is beyond me!

  There is more, but lets get to the "trial", again just the fact that they did it at all says they are still assuming he cheated but really don't know how!

  After the "so called trial" and only then do they bring up this "ding %" BS....

  IMO, ding% was plan B, had he shot -4 -5 they would have just said "SEEEEEEE, we knew it", but Tom shot -8 which made them go to plan B and start all this ding% talk, and this has become the focus of the discussion when this isn't the problem here!!!

  Is 79% dings high for 30 days, your d@mn right it is...impossible for 99.99% of us but still possible!

  The REAL PROBLEM here is, he was banned because they thought he was doing something, "Guilty by ASSUMPTION"...

  I'm not sure if there are countries on WGT where this acceptable, but I do know this isn't 1 of them!
  In a freaken Capitol Murder trial if there were 5, or 1000 jurors and only 1 thought you were innocent, end of story, your free to go...

  Here, it is whether or not they think your guilty, don't need proof, we said so....that's the real problem with this, no ding tests needed although that is interesting info to know to me, here someone drops a line to CS and says I think this person is a cheat, and if they agree it is bye bye, most likely with no proof at all!!!

  The "internet cafe guy" has been the topic in many a discussion for 1yr just because he had CE on his desktop, should he have been banned, NO, not for having it on "his desktop", running in his task bar then yes, but not for having it...was he cheating, most likely with the other evidence given, it took a f'n year and it wasn't until they introduced this sweepware, as if it could really find anything...well it obviously didn't find anything on Toms PC and it only took 1 day!!!!

  In Toms case, I think it is time for WGT to admit that Customer Service "Marcia Clarked" this one, they admitted over and over they didn't know what he did, but his stats were highly suspect, so it is time to do the right thing, reinstate him with a notice that he will be watched very closely!

  You can bet everyone here will be watching, and very closely!!!!

   

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 1:32 PM

  Guys, all of your input is appreciated and well-considered.

  I'm going to step back and let Dan or Roy reply to your points because in no way am I an IT expert (although I do play one on wgt).  Any computer-related input from me is based on my understanding of what they've told me in our club forum and in emails.

  edit:  As you can see, Jim and I must have been posting simultaneously...in fact my time stamp is a minute earlier than his.  Anyway, have said my piece, nothing more to add, just waiting to see if wgt will do the right thing.

• jeffmatulich 482 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 1:38 PM

  TopShelf2010:

  However, with regards to the "30 day history:" of percentages and all of this new testing information that is taking place, I will have to admit that there is quite a discrepancy.

  Ya think?  AVERAGE of 79% across 30 days of play.  no way, no how...not gonna happen.

  MK----G335 (nice guitar btw)- "The point here is that a man's reputation has been tarnished (maybe permanently) by an arbitrary and unfair judgment."

  Who cares...rightfully so....I sense the judgement is fair given what they know about their software- if he even meted out 65% they'd probably would have given a pass ----- just sayin'.  It was an acid test to cover themselves under the T/Cs.

  Lonnie - "How does WGT know how much the ding rate is for every top player ?"  

  Shaking my head....seriously??!?!? -- Ill say it again - They ave all of the shot data from every shot hit by every player since the games inception.....(do they have it readily available to leverage for these types of investigations? Probably not....but will they in the future?  Highly likely.

  ct69 "It seems to be applied the same way everything else is; arbitrarily. Completely at the discretion of whichever Mod is on duty that day."  and it's almost like there is a witch hunt on for anyone who is any good at this game..lol"

  Do you seriously believe that its the moderators of the forum (the "kids" (literally) making 60K a year in downtown San Francisco) who are driving the investigation of these activities?...executing maybe, but driving the initiative -- Naw....  NO!!! This is a bigger internal problem that they are working on and using the mods as a voice to the broader community. Common....really?  Lastly give me a witchhunt any day when it has to do with larceny, fraud and theft.  We are talking about credits (money) here.

  Agent --- "My thinking is that there must have been insurmountable evidence of the aforementioned player that he was indeed manipulating the game towards his favour."

  Well said and agree 99.999999% (on average -lol)

  Wiger "Laughable to think wgt would let it be known exactly how they arrived at their decision. To what end, to allow others to circumvent any deterrents that are in place?"

  Right?  They don't have to give us any more information nor should they.

  Anyway after ~20 rounds I've come in at an AVERAGE of 46.4% and boy oh boy I thought I hit a boat load of dings.....tons in one game not so much in others.....when I did the math I thought I'd be in the low 60's.....Nope...46.4%.  Im not a top player but to get from even say 55% to 79% NOPE NOPE NOPE. Not without a crutch.....Mind you, you'd still have to be an excellent player to leverage said crutch but end of the day 79 aint gonna happen without it.  

  Whether you like it or not WGT has done exactly the right thing here.  No questions, no doubt.

  Drops mic,  peace out.  (Im done with this investigation/confirmation)

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 1:43 PM

  jeffmatulich:

  Anyway after ~20 rounds I've come in at an AVERAGE of 46.4% and boy oh boy I thought I hit a boat load of dings.....tons in one game not so much in others.....when I did the math I thought I'd be in the low 60's.....Nope...46.4%.  Im not a top player but to get from even say 55% to 79% NOPE NOPE NOPE. Not without a crutch.....Mind you, you'd still have to be an excellent player to leverage said crutch but end of the day 79 aint gonna happen without it.  

  Whether you like it or not WGT has done exactly the right thing here.  No questions, no doubt.

  Drops mic,  peace out.  (Im done with this investigation/confirmation)

  If you did that with L79 irons, L45 L ball it certainly throws water on the 40% base mark flame.  Interesting and thanks for sharing. 

• jeffmatulich 482 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 2:10 PM

  Jimbog1964:

  If you did that with L79 irons, L45 L ball it certainly throws water on the 40% base mark flame.  Interesting and thanks for sharing.

   

  It most certainly does....and totally gree....Even so, I venture to guess that the base line of top players (and only top "ding" players) may probably be in in the 55-58% percent range (just guessing), but most certainly (without a doubt) not in the 70's.  Moreover, add in the top players who don't ding all the time and that number drops precipitously. We are talking about averages here.  Basic 8th grade math...79% ding rate average..OMFG -- think about that for a moment.  Let it sink in....think think think.............yeah pretty unachievable without help.

  and BTW I was forcing myself to hit every ding, every shot.........and...............

   

  Awe Jeysus -  I said I was done with this and here I am posting another comment....crap. crap crap.  I gotta let it go louie..  End of day ------Dude was caught cheating in "for money" games and has been banned.  Can I get a freakin' Hallelujah here....That's what we've all be bitching about for all these years - from the get go. --- right? RIGHT?!!!!  Bask in the glory, enjoy and live well.

  Imma ban my self from this thread entirely (and from wgt for a week).  Totally need a break from this stupid addiction..

   

  Peace (or puff puff puff) whatever you like or makes you happy. 

   

  Cheers

  Jeff

   

  Jeff

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 2:15 PM

  jeffmatulich:

  It most certainly does....and totally gree....Even so, I venture to guess that the base line of top players (and only top "ding" players) may probably be in in the 55-58% percent range (just guessing), but most certainly (without a doubt) not in the 70's.  Moreover, add in the top players who don't ding all the time and that number drops precipitously. We are talking about averages here.  Basic 8th grade math...79% ding rate average..OMFG -- think about that for a moment.  Let it sink in....think think think.............yeah pretty unachievable without help.

  Fair enough and good thoughts.  I was getting from some (v good players and recognised that 79% was within.  Thread is good there discussion wise.  Of course how they made up that 79%, and how accurate it is with the 40% blown out of the water is a worry I would have to say.  We don't have his streams, as never did any, and we don't have WGTs records or lack of as case may be..........

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Fri, Jul 22 2016 2:31 PM

  jeffmatulich:

  It most certainly does....and totally gree....Even so, I venture to guess that the base line of top players (and only top "ding" players) may probably be in in the 55-58% percent range (just guessing)

  Did your percentage include putts?  It makes a difference.

  We don't know if wgt included them, though someone with access to the "trial" should have found out by now.