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WGT's posts on VEM

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 7:44 AM

  VEM has been much debated and I’ve pulled together some of the comments made about it focusing particularly on those from WGT.  I was going to put this in the current VEM thread but it kept growing and I don’t want to swamp that one.  Many of the quotes I and others have used before, this is an attempt to draw the various posts from WGT together.

  In this section and the 2013 one I manage to keep my opinions to a minimum, the last section is infested with them :-)

  Some will think I don’t believe it’s on, from comments in other threads, that’s not quite true.

  VEM certainly exists and is used, what it is used to do is the question.

  The discussion started in Jan 2010 when Therockdoctor posted………... I came across this today and wonfered if some one from wgt could try and explain it …….

   The first wgt input was from WGTadmin

  To clarify, there is no "behind the curtain" tweaking of the equipment based on a player's skill. The performance characteristics of the equipment is made visible in the Pro Shop.  As you move up tiers, you get access to equipment that performs differently, and you're in control of what equipment you use.

  WGT does not change the performance of existing clubs based on the play of the individual using it.

  To me that says what they are using from the patent is the stuff we all see; principally precision and forgiveness.

  MisterWGT 

  Greetings everyone!

  I thought I’d add my two cents to this discussion in the hopes of answering any questions re: this forum’s speculation.

  
  

  -          WGT does not have a system where you, as the player, improve your skills via an RPG-system like in other games -- i.e. arm strength, scrambling ability, luck (my personal favorite), etc.   In WGT, the attributes of your player are the same from day 1 on. 

  
  

  -          How you improve your ability and/or skill in the game is via two methods:

  
  

           1)      Like real golf… simply playing, learning & getting more experience

           2)      Earning and/or purchasing better equipment (balls, clubs, etc)

  
  

  -          The equipment manufacturers select which clubs to feature in the game and we follow their guidance on their performance characteristics.   For clubs, as an example, the attributes for distance, accuracy, loft, etc. we list in the pro shop via the ratings.  NOTE:  We created the WGT clubs to fill-in a few gaps… especially for the starting player. 

  -          Whenever you equip a club, it’s performance/output will NEVER change based on your score, a tournament, who you are playing or, most importantly, your tier.

  -          Clubs are essentially locked and there is nothing automatically changing/modifying their performance during a single game, series of games, the day, etc.

  
  

  So put another way…

  -          If you are a HACK tier-player… the performance you will see with a WGT STARTER is the EXACT same performance a MASTER will see. 

  -          If you a PRO tier player… you will see the PING G10 Pro+ clubs performance in EXACTLY the same way as a MASTER tier player using the same clubs.

  That’s how we built the system – so everyone is on a fair & level playing field. 

  - MisterWGT

  Again suggesting skill based VEM is not turned on.

   

  This from one of the top two players (I think) at the time.

  
  AvatarLee

  
  

  So I took the night to think this situation over and the one quote that keeps coming back to me is this....

  "-          Whenever you equip a club, it’s performance/output will NEVER change based on your score, a tournament, who you are playing or, most importantly, your tier."

  In that sentence, Mr WGT has, in fact, answered all of your questions.  The fact that this thread is still ongoing is simply because you refuse to accept the answer.  I do.  I do not believe there is any behind the scenes shenanigans going on.  This is a reversal from my first impressions from yesterday, I admit.  I will trust what is being said only because it would be far more detrimental to the product and the reputation of the company if it were not the truth.  As far as the patents' existence and the language of the document, (I do not have any personal experience with filing patents) but it would make sense to include as much CYA in them as possible, not that it will all be used.  Try applying the current (known) system of advancing tiers which opens access to better equipment.  This better equipment is more precise, less forgiving, provides more distance, spin, higher trajectories and so on....  Does this not fit into the the "VEM" model?  I think it does.

  Out of all of this I think I have a new definition of the word 'crazy', as it applies to golf: Crazy is repeating the same task over and over expecting the same result!

  Just my 2 cents... And as always, sit back and enjoy! 

  I think it’s fair to say that either VEM at this time, in the respect of affecting an individual player, was not on or WGT were lying.

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 7:52 AM

  October 2013

  WGT Pizza

  Let's get this discussion started :)

  Yes, all equipment is programmed the same across the board, for all players (think of the pro shop). I'm not going to say it's impossible to manipulate the way equipment works for an individual, because frankly, I do not have a computer science degree. I will say that WGT does not have the capability to do this. Also, ethically speaking, there is no way WGT would ever explore this option, under any circumstances.

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

  And Icon

  To answer the question: NO

  Many reasons but main being: who decides who gets more forgiveness or faster meter or? This hasn't even crossed my mind since no one will ever agree on this topic.

  -wgticon 

  
  

  Mostly Pizza from there:

  Automatically adapting a virtual equipment model associated with the virtual equipment to reflect the determined user skill level.

  This means that the gear can be altered to suit my game, yes?

  Actually, no. It means that we are able to make changes to existing properties of items. That's it. There is zero implication that this patent means we have the capability to sell the same item that offers X to two players, and then go in and change the properties for only one of those players, making one item give X and one give Y.

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

  
   TWOMINUSONE:

  According to U.S. Patent 7806777 WGT DOES have the capability.

  You claimed that this patent gives WGT the capability of manipulating individual players' game/equipment. I am being firm on this subject because for too long WGT has been accused of shady, hidden dealings where we manipulate an individual's shot, game or equipment, leaving them at a disadvantage and the rest of the community at an advantage. This is just simply not true.

  I apologize if my stern nature on this subject seems a little harsh, but I take this seriously and there is no room for misunderstanding when this subject is considered.

  I would love to see you continue to contribute to the community, TWOMINUSONE, I just had to draw the line here. I hope you understand my position.

  P.S - I am certain that you are not the only one with this opinion. Take comfort in knowing you are not alone :)

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

  
  Yes it says in the T & C's that WGT can alter equipment at times, but this  could probably mean to adjust something when it comes out i.e a new wedge might be released but they are unhappy with how the spin reacts, so further down the line they might adjust it to give it a bit more spin or less like a 60 yard wedge might spin back 15 yards, after feedback they adjust it so it only spins back 10 yards, but no way would they alter any ones equipment individually, its all or nothing.

  Well said, CIB. This accurately describes something that WGT puts in to practice very often - we must change and evolve the equipment as imbalances or even bugs are discovered. When these changes are made, it is universal.

   

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

  
  
  
  

  With that being said... would it not be possible for a player to manipulate his/her own equipment

  Hey GlassMan27, good find. Even I was unclear about the "legalese" of this subject, so I spoke with some head honchos over here at WGT and It's interesting to learn that almost the exact same subject was discussed about 3 years ago in a thread.

  This is boiling down to company ethics, and whether or not our player base believes our stance or not. Our stance is this: WGT guarantees that the performance of one player's items never changes based on performance, or any other manipulation by the player or the company. The only time equipment changes is when the change is made unilaterally, for balancing or bug-correcting purposes.

  This is a hard-hitting question, and I appreciate you bringing it up in a classy demeanor, GlassMan27. I would be glad to answer any questions on this subject, but forgive me if the answer remains the same: WGT has not, does not and will not manipulate individual players' equipment, nor will we enable players to manipulate their individual equipment performance.

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

   

  WGTpizza

  
  

   GlassMan27:

  For the record, I would have quit playing here a long time ago if I ever truly believed I was not provided with a level playing field on which to compete

  I'm glad to hear you believe in WGT, and the fact that we give all of our players a level playing field.

  GlassMan27:

  So, based on your comments throughout this thread... am I correct in assuming that in no way, shape, or form VEM being utilized on this site?

  
  

  No, VEM is a crucial system within WGT. I can understand the confusion surrounding this subject, so I sat down with the CEO (and owner of the patent) and he helped me decipher the legalese so that I may share it with you.

  
  

  Essentially, the patent is for legal protection. It does give us the right to change the properties of clubs and balls, which we do often, but mainly it is for protecting the legal side of WGT. Whenever we exercise our right to change clubs and/or balls given to us by this patent, we do so unilaterally, and we tell the community about it. The only reasons we would do this is for balancing or bug correcting purposes.

  Now, back to the question that keeps coming up "Does WGT have the capability to manipulate individual player's equipment?" The answer is yes, we have the capability to do nearly anything to anyone, any course, any time, anywhere. The next question you should ask is "Does the video game I play operate in such an underhanded way that they would practice this capability?"

  The reason I say "the video game I play" and not "WGT" is because I want to make the point that similar companies has similar capabilities to manipulate the environment they produce.  Think of any other similar online game you have played. Did you trust them to operate honestly? To provide a level playing field for all players? If you did, I assume you stuck around a while. If you didn't, then I wouldn't blame you for spending your recreational time elsewhere.

  This is essentially what this question boils down to - yes, WGT has the power to manipulate the environment and/or clubs and balls they produce. Do you believe us when we say that we don't do so in an individual, unknown, shady deal but rather in a public, across the board manner that affects every player the exact same way? This is for the consumer to decide. We give you our word that we do not abuse the power of VEM, nor do we give our players the capability to do so. What you do with this information is your choice.

  I am certain there will still be "conspiracy theorists" out there who believe otherwise, and that is expected and perfectly acceptable. The only problem is when these theories are stated as facts. When someone passionately devotes so much time and effort into mastering a game, it is inevitable that at certain times they will fail when they feel the opposite outcome should have happened. The natural reaction that humans come to when they think they have all their bases covered but still fail is transference.

  I hope I was able to address all of your concerns and that I explained myself thoroughly. As always, my door is open, so feel free to send me a personal message or respond here with any questions :)

   Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

  
  

  WGTniv:

  Wow, you guys have made this so amazingly more complicated than it is.  Let me see what I can do to simplify this...

  The game is pretty simple.  Precision controls your accuracy.  Imagine it's like a circle that surrounds the flagstick when you aim at it.  The size of that circle is related to the precision rating.  The higher the rating the smaller the circle.  Your ball can land anywhere in the circle on a dinged shot (left or right, long or short).  It will ALWAYS land in the circle on a ding shot, though sometimes it may land in the center of the circle and sometimes it may land on the very outer edge or anywhere in between those two points.  When it lands on the outer edge this is what you guys have come to know as "the beast".  Was the shot pre-programmed? Does it know you're standing on the 17th hole at Kiawah?  No, it's just unfortunate timing.  The result you see is the logical spread dictated by the precision rating of the club over 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 shots taken on the site.  No matter how big or small the sample it's amazingly consistent because it is after all only a simple mathematical formula.  The shot data is spread out amongst all users, so there will be times when you run into a lot of "edge cases" (aka deviations, aka outside edge of the precision circle) and times where you seemingly can't miss the center (even when you mishit).  This is the ebb and flow of the game and it's always been there.  In the short term you will have "bad" days and "good" days.  In the long term (providing they are using the same clubs) any one player will see the same amount of "edge cases" or "deviations" that the rest of the players do.

  And that's all there is to it!  The other theories can be put to bed.  There's no behind the scenes tweaking, no changing club attributes based on skill and no hidden mechanism that knows when you're on a water hole.  It's just a formula that runs exactly the same for every single shot and it has no idea (nor does it care) where you are on the course.  It doesn't matter if it's the first tee shot on #1 or the winning 10-foot putt in the USGA Virtual Championship.  The formula runs the exact same calculation every single time and you're always at risk for an "edge case".  How far away an "edge case" can take you depends solely on your precision rating for that club.  The higher the precision rating (and conversely the more lofted the iron) the less "edge cases" will take you away from where you aimed. 

  Course releases have ZERO affect on your clubs. When a course is released it's just assets, hole maps, minimaps, HD photos and stuff that has absolutely no affect on your clubs.  Us adding a JPG picture file (or 100,000 of them) does not change the way your approach shot on Kiawah #2 interacts with the green.  Each course has it's own settings and each course comes with it's own set of "surfaces".   If you go into Oakmont expecting your clubs to interact the same way they do on Kiawah then you've already made your first mistake.  Every course has it's own nuances right down to how the ball is affected by elevation and break and you'll have to figure that out with practice.  While adjusting to those nuances you may forget the nuances you learned on the older courses and get stuck in between your adjustments.  That happens to me too.  A new course comes out and suddenly I can't make a putt on Kiawah because I've spent so much time learning how to play the new breaks on Oakmont.  As a result I end up over-playing breaks on everything for a short time while I adjust.

  Hope that clears some of this confusion up.  You fellas certainly come up with some wild ideas, but it's no where near as complicated or convoluted as some of you seem to think it is.  Remember, keep it simple because it really is simple.

  The post from WGTniv was in a thread that was deleted or I didn’t find, I got it from when it was quoted

  Again these posts seem to me to show personal VEM wasn’t on toward the end of 2013 or WGT were lying.  Not just lying but doing so emphatically and in great detail.  I’d say the last two posts, from Pizza and Niv were well thought out informative and attempting to completely clarify  what was going on.  I only wish that sort of interaction between the mod’s and players happened now.

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 7:56 AM

  2019/2020

  
  

  I think it was this year the WGTchampion replied in another thread where I posted Pizza’s detailed explanation (No, VEM is a crucial system within WGT.....that one)    that Pizza was a whole heap of wrong, or something like that (I think it was more insulting than that but precisely what escapes me).  The thread seems to have been deleted but I copied part of Champs post in another one…

  Okay so how does this translate to VEM? 

  VEM is in place to help, not to hurt. If a player is playing poorly VEM will kick in and do slight corrections. It's not going to save a ball aimed at the water, but it may give a small forgiveness boost to help. On the other end it's not going to make a terrible putt magically go into the cup. 

  Once the player begins to play a little better VEM will drop out and the player will be on their own again.

  Somehow this is generally taken as Champ confirming VEM is on.  What it reads to me like is a jumble of fact and fiction.  For a start if you take it at face value he says positive VEM happens the negative stuff does not, that is not what those that believe it’s on usually say.  What gives a forgiveness boost, I would think, is forgiveness.  The last paragraph is bizarre; saying again VEM is on but  only the positive stuff and it drops out when the player plays well, forgiveness doesn't do that.  I struggle to see how else to interpret that, perhaps he means when you hit the ding more often you’ll use forgiveness less? 

  I certainly believed Pizza’s detailed explanation more than this off hand dismissal of an (ex?)college. I mean no insult to Champ there, it's  just my personal view of the two posts.  Pizza said the same thing as WGTadmin, MisterWgt, Icon and WGTniv, yes there is VEM but it’s not used on the individual.  If Pizza is all kinds of wrong (was that it?) then they all are.

  I really can’t see how anyone can reasonably say WGT have not said VEM, as the destructive force people here mean, was not on at least until the end of 2013.  There is obviously a big gap between then and now and it could have been turned on in between.  The point in the earlier stuff is that then, as now, the vast majority in the forum were saying that VEM was affecting them, the usual “I was 10 under after 10 then VEM kicked in” “my shot went 30yds right of where it should have and ended in the water” sort of stuff.  Nothing has changed in what people think, indeed it’s often the same people.  There is no reason to think the status of VEM has changed since then.

  If there are many left I’ve not annoyed already I’m probably about to.  I think Pizza was spot on saying that this personal VEM people see is transference.  That round where you were -10 after 10 you were possibly -6 after 6 and what happened? Of course it all goes right until it goes wrong. 

  Many of the people here know how to play all the holes and can play each one as well as anyone else, they have charts for everything, so why is there a difference with those right at the top? I don’t think it is just ding rate, of the top players I’ve seen Mags rounds most and I don’t think he’s exceptional at hitting the ding, yes pretty good but not exceptional.  I think concentration and focus, not making big mistakes, and having a good memory are key. Knowing the holes helps too, understanding that some don’t play as they “should”. That shot that went 30yds right of where it should have; it wasn’t the marker was at 50yds instead of 250yds, it wasn’t that you forgot the wind or even (as I have) aimed right for a wind taking you right, it wasn’t any number of mistakes you may have made, it was VEM.  Incidentally that’s not what it’d do if it was on.

  Maybe top players would  also admit  (to themself) any mistakes they do make rather than think “oh, Vem’s kicking in this round will go badly now”.  Meaning they have one bad shot and not a few bad holes.  They don’t need to activate personal VEM, we do it in our heads.

  From Mags in the CC forum

  FWIW, in well over a year of recording, any WTF shot has turned out to be my fault when going back and looking at the video apart from shots which lose 8-9 yards of distance for no apparent reason - this is something to do with the way the WGT trajectory algorithm interacts with certain topographies (I think). Also starter balls do not deviate off line any more than any other ball. If VEM were implemented (which WGT say it isn't, and I'd tend to agree) then according to the patent it would just be making the area where you can get away with a slight mishit smaller as your skill level improves. It would not cause the two shots mentioned above. 

  Some of that is relevant only to the post it was in response to and it’s obviously old, I’m not saying it’s what he believes now as I don’t know that.  I used it as there are two points there that are the last I want to pick up on.

  If personal VEM was on it should affect the best players most and it’s, generally, not the best players that complain about it. Yiannis being among the exceptions to that.

  People have been complaining about this for 10 years and recording their rounds for a large part of this yet I have not seen one single compelling piece of evidence for it. I do mean compelling evidence, not hearsay, not a replay.  Is there a filmed shot (where we see what was hit and how) someone can point to and say with certainty “that was VEM in action”?  There should be thousands if what is said on here is true.

  I think there is VEM; good, bad and random and like most things here you can buy how much of the first two you get to some extent.  They are respectively forgiveness, precision (bad as it’s sort of lack of precision, not the middle of the circle so buy a smaller circle) and wind and  they depend on what equipment you use and how lucky you are in a particular round.  One round you may hit the edge of the circles and never get helpful winds and the next everything is in your favour and forgiveness even sorts out your misses.  You may even get everything in your favour for 10 holes and then the wind goes against you and you also hit the edge of circles for a few holes. I suppose that is VEM but it’s not personal/targeted.  A round like the one described is reported as “I was doing great until VEM hit on 11”, equally true would be “lucky I had VEM the first 10 holes or my score could have been awful” but most accurate would be I had VEM the whole round, as always, and my score was………..  .

• Yiannis1970 3,304 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 9:02 AM

   

  DodgyPutter:

  If personal VEM was on it should affect the best players most and it’s, generally, not the best players that complain about it. Yiannis being among the exceptions to that.

  People have been complaining about this for 10 years and recording their rounds for a large part of this yet I have not seen one single compelling piece of evidence for it. I do mean compelling evidence, not hearsay, not a replay.  Is there a filmed shot (where we see what was hit and how) someone can point to and say with certainty “that was VEM in action”?  There should be thousands if what is said on here is true.

   

  I am not complaining, i just state facts. If you don't know what VEM is or how it operates (you were wondering at the start of your post), you can always read the patent which is pretty clear to me unlike all these contradictory (to say at least...) posts you quoted. I can quote them as well if you like and demonstrate eloquently the huge amount of contradiction within the posts.

   

  You want a vem action?

   

  Take some for example....

   

   

   

   

   

  As a conclusion, i am not going to argue with you. You have already made up up your mind as i have. After all these years, i know when i am playing bad and hitting poor shots, as i know when i am playing well and vem gets in the middle...

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

• Mythanatos 2,216 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 9:09 AM

  I've had tons of arguments about it with others. and my conclusion is  thus despite two main facts.

  1)The best players are super consistent. very minimal variation. and they would be the first to notice it.

  2)No one has ever been able to document VEM trends.

  however you will never convince the tin foil hatters. it's just not possible. it's banging your head against a brick wall. 

   

   

• Yiannis1970 3,304 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 9:15 AM

  Yep, i agree...it's a hard job to convince tin foil hatters, as just as hard to make blinds open their eyes...

• Mythanatos 2,216 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 9:38 AM

  Yiannis1970:

  Yep, i agree...it's a hard job to convince tin foil hatters, as just as hard to make blinds open their eyes...

  ok i watched all 3 videos.

  2 were on the same hole with the same problem. Strong tailwind. the comparison one was different by about 22.5 degrees of  tail. and that matters.

  on 6 congo. I liked your math on all but the long shot i knew that one was going to be long i had 3 yards less power than you did in my head.

  HOWEVER... if you're using the same ball i am the 81 TM it doesn't have enough spin to carry the water and hold it near the pin when you start going to 12-20 mph of tail. the ball flight is lower and it hits right where yours did on the wall or if lucky just barely past it.

  sure in match play or coin games depending on what the other person did it might be worth the risk. however in stroke games... 

  Front pin it's just not worth it with a strong tailwind to try to hit it close.  to be safe you either hit with extra power and go way long or hit to the left. ( i hit to the left).

  As i said on your water balls on that hole your math was good to me. but i know what happens there. it either gets wet or just barely clears the wall with tails.

   

  WC 8. 

  1) that hole plays a few yards shorter than listed to me. i take 4-5 yards off my math after calculations just because if i err i want an uphill putt and not a sidehill or downhill.

  2) the math was good to me except for taking off the extra 4-5 yards.

  3) you hit that decently late with a left to right wind. that was also a huge drop. of course it's going to go way to the right.  the yardage was longer than  5 yards past math (7) because the ball hit even lower than the pin.

  All 3 of those examples were actually predictable. and really not even way off on anything. 

  i knew what was going to happen after all of those approach contacts.

• Yiannis1970 3,304 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 10:04 AM

  I give up...you can't even understand what i am trying to prove here. Have you seen the carry with the same shot? 255 yds against 244? 11 yds of difference on the same shot?

  On the comparison video, i have more tailwind than him!!! What on earth are you talking about? He had a 2 o'clock wind and hit 210 full backspin...his ball carried 219. I had an 11 o'clock wind, played 93% back spin and my ball carried 208.

   

  If these things are predictable for you, i can understand why you call me tin foil hatter...as i understand you don't understand anything about this game.

• Mythanatos 2,216 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 10:17 AM

  right the more tail the flatter the ball flight. less time in air.  a larger portion of the calculated distance is roll. 

  the more the headwind, it carries most of the distance, if not all in the air, then bites.

  so if you're wondering why the one with more tail landed shorter that's why. 

   

  if i remember right it was 9mph of math tailwind compared to 14  right? that's 5 mph difference on a shot that has about 5 yards of leeway between pin and water. 

  you even said you hit it with less backspin.

  it's coming in flatter. so it hits shorter. 

• Yiannis1970 3,304 Posts

  Wed, Nov 18 2020 10:36 AM

  1.30 - 2 o'clock wind with 11 o'clock wind makes a difference of 11 yds in carry....ok, i believe you...or maybe the pixel i took off from my full back spin made all the difference after all...right. Yep, i am the tin foil hatter...sorry for the interruption, keep sharing knowledge to people who read this forum...i am out of here.