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Tue, Feb 15 2022 4:05 PM (22 replies)
  • BPeterson8256
    2,913 Posts
    Mon, Feb 14 2022 10:45 AM

    mhiker830:

    more than 20 under par seems impossible. Am I wrong?

    Yes

    I can't speak for the "49". However, I shot 51 (-21) and I can tell you how. I made several mistakes and I missed a few putts.

    mhiker830:

    This is the first WGT tournament I have participated in, are they all like this?

    No

    This was an open tournament for all tiers, being played from shorter than normal tees, in easy conditions, on a course that is easy to score low on. Those top scores come from players with thousands of rounds of experience. Playing in a tournament specific to your tier will give you a better chance of being competitive.

  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Mon, Feb 14 2022 10:56 AM

    ct690911:

    Dodgy, you are a 55 avg Tour Champion. You are saying that you'd be happy as a 65 or 70 avg Legend? 

    With your obvious dedication and talent, I personally think you would become frustrated very quickly. 

    Hmm, I am a 68 avg legend. I guess I'd be a 75-80 legend? (maybe still a master or TM)

    Yes I'd be happy, for a few reasons. Outside the benefits, if we all had higher averages I'd be in roughly the same place so I don't see any downside.

    55 is just so ridiculous it just seems made up and doesn't feel like an achievement at all, having an average of 65-70 would feel good even if I knew for the reasons below it wasn't real :-/ 

    I don't have dedication or talent to thank for my tier and average, I have longevity and circumstances. When TC was created I sneaked in as I'd been at Champ so long.  That meant I didn't have to achieve an average of 55 over 1,000rr.  The way the game is set up everyone's average goes down if they play rr's, I've played quite a few.

    If averages were 10 strokes higher then the game would have been changed in some way, to make it harder, I'd certainly like that.  As things are if you make one mistake, and that can mean not get an eagle, then you're not likely going to win that particular tournament (lol, unless it's unlimited and I'm not even going there).  It would be nice to think you could get strokes back.

    Now, as I would lose if I played the bigger tournaments and more expensive rg's, I play the cheap rg's and they tend to be low wind and fast-tournament greens. Even someone like me can sometimes score low in these.  So even without a ss and having never counted dots, or whatever, I end up with an average of 55, I certainly didn't do anything horrible enough to "earn" it.  Well not much, some red tee (gameday tourney three times....a few others like that) I suppose.  I'd still much rather be playing uel and getting higher scores.

  • BPeterson8256
    2,913 Posts
    Mon, Feb 14 2022 11:09 AM

    DodgyPutter:

    55 is just so ridiculous it just seems made up and doesn't feel like an achievement at all, having an average of 65-70 would feel good even if I knew for the reasons below it wasn't real :-/ 

    It is an old topic, and I don't completely disagree with your perspective. However, I do see a major issue with what it would be like if the game was more difficult (however that was accomplished).

    I think there are way more players that don't know how to play, than players that do. They already think the game is rigged or that the game is too random. When they start to struggle to break triple digits, and many of them would, they would quit playing. There wouldn't be enough players left to support the game. It is one thing to struggle to break par or break 70, which is where most players are at. It is an entirely different thing if those players felt like par was impossible, like they think 18 under is now.

  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Mon, Feb 14 2022 3:21 PM

    BPeterson8256:
    It is an old topic, and I don't completely disagree with your perspective. However, I do see a major issue with what it would be like if the game was more difficult (however that was accomplished).

    I know none of this will happen and wgt don't care but I thought I'd answer anyway :-(

    Making the game harder would be good but if they'd stop making it easier that would be a start.

    Why would people give up if it was initially difficult, because it's completely different people playing it now from those around in the early years?

    The game was much more difficult and that's where it grew from, I'm not sure it's still growing and actually I doubt it, but a lot of the income still comes from people that have been playing a long time.

    I remember the first time I got into double figures, it was at St St Andrews and it was about a week until I did it again.  The first VUSO was won with a 66 at BB, I wonder what the less gifted players were shooting then.  When I was struggling to break three figures the winning score was down to 119 for 36 holes at Cong'. 

    WGT continue to sell equipment to make the game easier and easier and now these scores would be nowhere.

    These players who would struggle to break 100 now, I don't believe many exist (and the ones scoring 180's don't count) but it wouldn't come up anyway as they are very unlikely to play 18 holes. The ones I meet playing one or three holes are perfectly capable of scoring par or better.

     

  • BPeterson8256
    2,913 Posts
    Mon, Feb 14 2022 3:53 PM

    DodgyPutter:

    I know none of this will happen 

    Still an interesting conversation though.

    I have only been playing for just over 5 years, and the game is virtually the same as when I started, other than coin rooms and apparel helping PC players in the Clash.

    I just think the game is a ton of fun despite what scores are compared to the real world. I think any virtual game can eventually be mastered. My mindset is completely adjusted to the way it is. I always feel like a par is a bogey. 

    For me, if they found a way to add 20% to scores across the board, I would still have fun shooting 67+, and I would still play, still getting beat by scores around 64. I question how much players that use to shoot 65 would like shooting 78. And I highly doubt players that find it a challenge to shoot par at 72 would still enjoy struggling to break 86. I would think that would feel like failing (because of the comparison to par). I know for myself, learning to break par was a fun challenge that kept me playing, as was learning to break 70.

    There are hundreds of players as good as us, but there are thousands that would find themselves going from 65 to 78, and thousands more going from 72 to 86+. I have only watched scores dropped out of the first 5 pages of the King's Cup a few times. When I have watched, it looks to me like 75% of the field (extrapolating data with a little math) shoot above 63-64. And that is in mild conditions with short tees, and players that like competition.

    Still, I could be wrong. Maybe those players would play just as much and welcome the challenge. I think most players in the category that think the game is too easy though, assume making it more difficult would not effect their scores. lol 

  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Tue, Feb 15 2022 1:39 AM

    There is no way they could make scores higher their whole business model model would collapse.  You (I think) mentioned earlier about new players and income, I reckon they get most of that from existing players with the top up from new players filling in for those who leave.

    Going back again we all, in one way or another, bought equipment and upgrades as wgt pushed back the tees.  That came to a grinding halt about three or four (?) years ago, there hasn't been a genuinely new club since then. The price hikes on the paint jobs are reasonable and newer players will still be purchasing.  I do also remember when the top balls were 300c, the Nike rzn I think raised this to 500c and beyond.  Now, if you want to compete on level terms with the best players, you need to spend 1,500 credits on a set of balls.  These massive increases are how wgt continue to get ever more from the older players. Of course you have a choice but that's not what I'm pointing out here.

    They have to give something in return though and that's yardage, more accuracy, a slower meter and more forgiveness.  They can't ever take that away, all they can do is keep peddling the illusion that players are getting better.  The top balls will keep getting more expensive and scores will only get lower.

    The even lie game is where it is and I wouldn't waste my time trying to argue about any change in it.  I did try to ask about uneven lie but just got corporate speak saying nothing but meaning, as I interpreted it, that it won't ever be back.  If not uneven lie then something else, something that hasn't been completely reverse engineered and every dot counted with the resulting ss allegedly freely purchasable but not usually free :-/ 

    So in the end, yes the game will only ever get easier.  There could have been a choice, as in two ways to play, but it seems not.  The reason, supposedly not enough played the less popular version before (always tricky for the less popular version to be as popular).  Vegan, and everything except big mac, burger lovers will (perhaps) be glad McDonalds don't follow the same business model.  The difference of course is there are lots of places to get a burger.  

  • MioKontic
    4,654 Posts
    Tue, Feb 15 2022 3:30 AM

    If I could chime in here and give my tuppence worth...

    I started back in Nov 2010.  There were only WGT balls available, the best ball not only being level-specific, but also tier-specific, i.e. only for Legends because they needed a little bit of extra control as they were now hitting from car park tees.  But even then the ball wasn't stopping on a sixpence (or a dime if you prefer) , nor was the meter so slow that you could go make a cup of tea and still come back to hit the ding.  And as you bought clubs to get more distance you sacrificed that distance for meter speed, i.e. the meter was faster.  It took skill and practice to be a good player

    The game was fun, and far more realistic than it is now or ever will be again.  And I would argue (and I'm a real low-handicap golfer) it was far more fun back then than it is now.  You had to learn how to play shots, you had to have good reactions, you had to learn how far the ball would run on the greens; yes you might still have used calculators and spreadsheets, but there was still far more thought that went into playing shots than one does now.  For example, I remember being taught how to play the approach shot on St Andrews #2, left pin.  If you aimed at the pin the ball would invariably run way past, there was simply no way of stopping it.  And that's what you should expect when it's on a downhill slope.  However, to the left of the pin is a little hump; you aimed for that hump to slow the ball down, and sometimes it might even stop.  The putt was still difficult, but much shorter.  Then they brought in Callaway balls and Callaway wedges and before you knew it you were landing just past the pin and screwing the ball back up the slope and off the front of the green - I very much doubt you'd ever see that in real golf on that approach shot.

    I remember my first ever full 18-fole game on Bethpage Black... +17.  That was with starter clubs and balls.  Fun?  Definitely.  Frustrating? For sure!  But bit by bit you learned how to play certain shots to better your score.  When you first started did you play St Andrews #7 with starter clubs and balls?  You couldn't reach the fairway, so you learned where the best place in the rough was to be able to hit your 2nd shot from in order to give you the best chance to make a par.  St Andrews par 5 14th - if you weren't sure your 2nd shot would get over the mound and rough, you aimed right because the rough was less penalising than down the middle.  The really classy players would play to the other fairway on the left, but that was frought with danger as it was on the edge of WGT's view of the hole, there was only a small area to aim for.

    Would the players who shoot low 50's now still be the best players back then?  I don't think so - these players are gamers, everything has to be perfect for them, I'm not convinced they would have the patience to figure things out.  I cannot imagine any of the current so-called superstars playing back in 2009 when all you had was starter slubs and balls (there were no credits), and all you had to begin with was CTTH's.  That's where the top players back then learned to play the game, and in my mind they were far more skillful than any of the players you find on the earnings leaderboard now.

    But as DodgyPutter says, the game will not go back to those good old days, it will only ever get easier, and costlier.  As I read somewhere recently. WGT is now just a  computer game based loosely on the game of golf, whereas before it was a good golf simulator.  I shot a 56 in this past weekend's Game Day Drive tournament (not something I normally play), and my -16 was good for 194th place!  Even a -18 only got you 81st place!  That is how ridiulous this game has become.  I remember a couple of years ago watching a video of Justin Rose and Graeme McDowell playing the new version of WGT and thinking it was good, it would be interesting to know what they would have thought of the Flash version back in the old days in comparison.

  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Tue, Feb 15 2022 5:05 AM

    MioKontic:
    When you first started did you play St Andrews #7 with starter clubs and balls?  You couldn't reach the fairway, so you learned where the best place in the rough was to be able to hit your 2nd shot from in order to give you the best chance to make a par.

    My memory's terrible but I think I tried to land on the the path and even succeeded very occasionally.  I did go left on 14 but it was more in hope than expectation :-)  The drive on 4 I always had trouble with, into the wind you had to land it on the initial narrow bit and if you succeeded you had the reward of not being able to reach the green. A tailwind always seemed to see me get a bounce that went sideways into the rough.  Getting anywhere close to the pin on 13 was a major achievement and doing it on 17 was cheating :-))

  • BPeterson8256
    2,913 Posts
    Tue, Feb 15 2022 6:08 AM

    MioKontic:

    If I could chime in here and give my tuppence worth...

    Thank you for doing so. That was an interesting read on the early days

    MioKontic:

    WGT is now just a  computer game based loosely on the game of golf, whereas before it was a good golf simulator.

    I think I understand the point you are trying to make, especially as it relates to scoring. Perhaps WGT still relates to real golf as much as ever though. Over the weekend I listened to Nick Faldo lamenting on how they had to play the course compared to how it is played now. Some of his thoughts echoed yours in how much the real game has changed.

    One thing that I think WGT totally has right, is the way it makes you think like golf in the real world. As I watch the PGA, here announcers talk about the game, and then listen to the post round interviews, I see and hear so much that completely relates to the things we go through within this game.

    Along those same lines, I find it great fun to watch the PGA playing on a course I only know from WGT, like Pebble Beach. I think it is amazing that I can watch a tee shot on 14 take off over a tree and say out loud, "that's got to go or it's in the sand". And sure enough, the ball ends up exactly where I thought it would, before the view from above even showed what the hole looked like. 

    I would never compare this game to "real golf", but I love this game and the experiences I get playing it. I love it for what it is, and try not to concern myself with what it's not. There are so many fun ways to play. You could even play starter balls and starter clubs just like in the early days if that challenge is what makes the game fun for you. I occasionally enjoy things like Set Of The Week tournaments that play so different.

    For Love Of The Game

    Brett

  • PureGro1
    1,656 Posts
    Tue, Feb 15 2022 8:13 AM

    BPeterson8256:

    Perhaps WGT still relates to real golf as much as ever though. Over the weekend I listened to Nick Faldo lamenting on how they had to play the course compared to how it is played now. Some of his thoughts echoed yours in how much the real game has changed.

    One thing that I think WGT totally has right, is the way it makes you think like golf in the real world. As I watch the PGA, here announcers talk about the game, and then listen to the post round interviews, I see and hear so much that completely relates to the things we go through within this game.

    Along those same lines, I find it great fun to watch the PGA playing on a course I only know from WGT, like Pebble Beach. I think it is amazing that I can watch a tee shot on 14 take off over a tree and say out loud, "that's got to go or it's in the sand". And sure enough, the ball ends up exactly where I thought it would, before the view from above even showed what the hole looked like. 

    I would never compare this game to "real golf", but I love this game and the experiences I get playing it. I love it for what it is, and try not to concern myself with what it's not. There are so many fun ways to play. You could even play starter balls and starter clubs just like in the early days if that challenge is what makes the game fun for you. I occasionally enjoy things like Set Of The Week tournaments that play so different.

    For Love Of The Game

    Brett

    Great post....Pretty much summed up my feelings in a much nicer way than I could have written.

    My perspective as a newer WGT player and not an Elite Gamer or Elite WGT Player is that everyone of these threads dealing with scoring, equipment, and/or apparel devolves to the same spot where an original WGT player will tell us all how much harder it was for them and how there actually much better than todays players but scores don't show that because we have it easier now...

    I realize this is a human condition and shows itself in every facet of society, But it really does get old to read the same thing over and over When the ability to recreate the original game is in their own hands by turning off apparel, using starter or low level clubs and balls...But they do not.

    "There are so many fun ways to play."

    Having fun and practice makes for better players, devaluing other peoples scores and accomplishments does not- it just makes people doing it sound bitter.

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