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kids and reality

• navigater 1,319 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 4:07 PM

  If you get enough players on the site at the same time.you get a lot of (anomalys?)

• nivlac 2,188 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 4:12 PM

  Regardless of opinion, it is a fact that underage gambling/gaming is illegal and will not be tolerated by online gaming sites. These companies have rules and regulations that must be followed or else they will be closed down. This means following laws on underage gambling/gaming.

  WGT would be sued if they let under-age gaming occur. If it was a persistent problem, they would be closed down. This includes under-age gaming on

  

  free and demonstration play modes also. The reason for this is that under-age gambling is not only considered illegal, it is also considered morally wrong.  Hence, even on the supposed .NET "free" sites, there is still an 18+ age restriction.  Why is that?  Because playing for free would encourage improved skill levels and promote enjoyment of the game and so may lead to opening an under-age money account.

  Faterson is incorrect in his assertion that WGT has any control over this.   Not only would it be against the law in every state, but much like the alcohol industry, It would be socially irresponsible of WGT to allow minors to partcipate on a "restricted" .NET site.  In doing so, they would still be promoting under-age gaming simply because of the relation to the main site.  Again, it's the exact same reason PokerStars, FullTilt and every other similar place on the internet has an 18+ restriction on their .NET site.  It has nothing to do with what WGT or PokerStars wants and everything to do with what is permissible under the current laws in America.

  WGT would put themselves in a very compromising position by allowing a minor to fund an account.  Credit Card and PayPal use are restricted to persons over 18, so if an account is funded in that manner it is only a simple matter for the parents to call the Credit Card company and go after a chargeback.   All they have to do is "claim" they never knew about the purchase.  After all, this is the internet and there are NO signatures.  I speak from experience when I say that without a valid signature, WGT is going to have a hard time proving who actually deposited the funds. If it comes down to a "their word against the customer's word" situation, then WGT will lose that chargeback every single time.  Hell, people can sometimes win chargeback claims even when there is a signature.  THEY signed for it acknowledging the purchase and they still get away with a refund, often without actually returning the product.

  I've worked in retail for over 10 years, Faterson.  People employ this underhanded tactic more often than you realize and the seller is the ONLY one who ends up losing.  Not only would WGT lose the funds that were added (and the credit card fees they paid to accept the funds), they would also be required to pay the $11.00 chargeback fee each and every time it happened.

  WGT would be making a terrible business decision by taking on such an incredible liability with no guarantee on investment.  The risks associated (both legally and financially) are not worth the minuscule increase in sales that might....MIGHT be reaped from it.  It has been reported elsewhere that only 5% of WGT's of-age (18+) players buy any equipment to begin with.  Knowing that,  you can really offer no assurances, proof and most importantly no ROI that allowing underage players with multiple financial restrictions (that essentially need to depend on gifting) is worth the increased liability that is associated with it.

  Consider the amount of resources, funds & man-power that would need to be diverted away from the main site to a "mirror" site that still wouldn't be legally allowed to accommodate minors.  It's a total lose-lose situation for WGT and it's legally-aged customer base.  That means more servers to pay for and maintain to address the increase in players, more duplicate accounts (because let's be honest, kids are honest 100% of the time unlike adults....), more underage "customers" with problems taking support time away from actual paying customers and even less speed on new releases and product fixes.  Sounds like what everyone who has invested their hard-earned money into WGT wants.  But, at least the boy can play now, right?

  It will take a near social revolution in the financial industry, the gaming/gambling industry and the laws that govern them both for minors to be able to legally access any sites (or demonstration sites) where skill-gaming occurs.   That won't be happening any time soon.

• Richard4168 4,309 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 4:32 PM

  (Applause) Excellent nivlac. You've summed up this matter in one post than 20 or 30 post in the last thread about this topic could do.

   

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 4:35 PM

  Pretty convincing.

• neildiamond11790 1,115 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 4:46 PM

  what he said

  I think some are forgetting this is a skill based gaming site, much like poker, and don't forget poker is first and foremost a card "game".  But once money comes into play under 18 is a big no no.  The only suggestion to those in favor of under 18 is to send large checks to WGT to make a mirror site with no money and free equipment, which lets face it would mean the end to this site.

  And on a further note, regarding the adult chat room this kind of is, no good has ever come from adults and children in sites that allow chat, we have all seen to catch a predator to know the outcome.  for the guy who is letting his 2 kids knowingly play on this site, despite the rules, you should be banned and possibly penalized some how for allowing it, you are putting the whole site at risk so your kids can play with you.  go buy a game for your pc to let them play, cost would be about the same as a new set of clubs on the site.

  last note, I would rather WGT put time into enhancements and new courses then put effort into a childrens site, thats just me though.

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 4:58 PM

  nivlac:

  WGT would put themselves in a very compromising position by allowing a minor to fund an account.

  Your novelette was beside the point, Nivlac, as usual when you expound on this subject. The proof is in the above quotation.

  Nowhere has anyone suggested that "minors should fund an account". I said very clearly that any and all purchases would only be made by adult account holders, just as today. While today, of course, there are doubtlessly thousands of underage WGT users, pretending to be adults, and gambling for real on this site, given no chance to "come clean" and confess to their true age. That's the utmost exercise in hypocrisy: professing that today's status quo serves to justify legal demands, whereas in fact it does the very opposite, only undercover.

  You concoct a strawman, Nivlac, and then ramble on and on, talking about your own, peculiar interpretation of the issue, instead of about the issue itself.

  You are perfectly entitled to do that, of course. It's just totally unconvincing.

  Again: the only thing needed is for WGT to set up a restricted type of user accounts that would not allow players holding those accounts to enter any credits/prizes transactions. Thus, no gambling whatsoever, under any conceivable scenario, occurs – not the faintest suggestion of it.

  Issue solved! Easy as pie.  

  You see, Nivlac, the world is full of perverse things. The human mind is capable of all manners of contortions. If we choose to justify the greatest absurdity, we will no doubt succeed, because the human mind is capable of finding justifications for anything, including the greatest atrocities in mankind's history.

  We should take a totally different approach: that of common sense. It's an outrageous violation of common sense to chase young people away from this golf game, just as acca says in the opening post of this thread.

  Therefore, the capacity of the human mind should be used to devise ways of allowing young players on this site, with all legal demands satisfied, instead of misusing the human mind in order to justify the absurd, the unreasonable, the laughable and outrageous.

• nivlac 2,188 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 5:20 PM

  nivlac:

  Not only would it be against the law in every state, but much like the alcohol industry, It would be socially irresponsible of WGT to allow minors to partcipate on a "restricted" .NET site.  In doing so, they would still be promoting under-age gaming simply because of the relation to the main site.  Again, it's the exact same reason PokerStars, FullTilt and every other similar place on the internet has an 18+ restriction on their .NET site.  It has nothing to do with what WGT or PokerStars wants and everything to do with what is permissible under the current laws in America.

  The fact that you are unable to acknowledge this simple fact shows me that you are wholly incapable of making a logical argument on this topic.  Your total lack of respect for the laws in my country is utterly incomprehensible.

  A real debater refutes facts with facts and then backs them up just as I have done.  You offer only "straw man" and no facts.  My post is 99% facts.  You however, are offering only opinions and off-topic stories about perversity and debating tactics.  You completely ignored all the  relevant facts, pulled out the one opinion and then used it to support your opinion.

  When you wish to discuss the issue with ACTUAL facts to back up your claims, please make them known to all of us, because it would seem that the majority is agreeing with me and not you.

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 5:40 PM

  Nivlac, that's a bunch of misinterpretations entirely of your own making.

  What "lack of respect for laws"? You've got to be hallucinating  , or perhaps you don't read my posts, but submit your replies anyway.

  I stressed several times in this thread that all legal demands must always be satisfied. Gambling is not permitted for underage players, therefore let's not permit gambling for underage players. That is all that is required, and it will be 100% achieved when a new, limited type of restricted user accounts is introduced, preventing any involvement in credits/prizes transactions.

  Your deliberations on "social irresponsibility", as quoted above, are definitely no "facts", but they are merely your private, over-the-top and (as I see it) utterly misleading interpretations of what this issue is all about.

  If you truly want to respect the laws of your country, Nivlac, then lobby for WGT.com to introduce age verification, like all the porn sites do. That would, perhaps, prevent underage gambling. The current situation prevents nothing, and it teaches young people to be dishonest liars, because in order to enjoy this great golf game, they must cheat and claim to be 18 or older. Thus, it is the current setup that you defend, Nivlac, that is, in fact, morally corrosive.

  If you prevent the underage account holder from entering any credits/prizes transactions, then all issues are resolved, and all legal demands are 100% satisfied. And if you ensure you only give full accounts to adults, using reliable age verification methods, then likewise all issues will have been resolved, and all legal demands 100% satisfied, with no danger, real or hypothetical, for any underage WGT site user.

  (Nota bene: I don't really care if they introduce age verification on this site or not; it's just unimportant for me. I do care about allowing young golf fans to play this game, naturally without any involvement in credits/prizes transactions, because banning them from this site entirely is unbearably silly and unfair.)

• SweetiePie 4,925 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 5:57 PM

  Actually, everything above is nuts. All of it. Freedom is without all of the above. Make your own decisions with your own brain. If you wish to follow the stupidity of strangers then expect strange results and arguments. This is a game. It should be enjoyed by anyone who wants to try it. Especially the young, not just the young of heart and mind.

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Tue, Jan 12 2010 6:05 PM

  As so often, I fully concur with Ms. SweetiePie. She says it all in a few lines, while Nivlac's and my own expansive blabber are non-essential footnotes.