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HOW to stop sandbagging!!!

• jayjonbeach 689 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 10:02 AM

  So simple really and barely anything has to change. 

  Not only will this stop sandbagging, it will also stop people from protecting their averages too, this is a win win with no downfall that I see anyway, feel free to point out something bad about this.  

  I cant see why this shouldnt be implemented, then we can finally have things like RG tourneys for Pros etc without having to compete with someone that should be a Master. 

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  Please rank each HOLE of golf played.   Problem solved. 

  Averages are calculated just like they are now, 10 of 14 games, nothing changes EXCEPT that partial rounds ALSO count, hence one bad hole or good hole counts towards the entire 14 games.

  You could also put more weight on tourney ranked rounds than regular ranked rounds, another simple but effective idea here.  I would also recommend not announcing just what is changing, exactly, just that something will be, so as to not make it easier for players to manipulate the system. 

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  Yes it is not fullproof since people can still quit after one bad shot on a hole but it will hardly be worth it.   This one simple change will really make it difficult and troublesome for a sandbagger or protector to keep up what they are currently doing.   Are they really going to quit after everytime they have a bad or good shot?  Maybe some will try but at least this is much better than what is happeneing now, the current system is all too easy to manipulate.  Its so obvious when you have Pros shooting 27 - 31 in tourneys over and over again. 

  For all that is fair, please implement this. 

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  I want to be able to compete in some tourneys, its part of the reason I play Golf at all, I love competition.  Right now, I have to unfairly compete with Masters in any tourney I go in since they dont have RG for Pro and other weekly stuff etc you have true Masters with a Pro tier ranking, as we all know thanks to how easy sandbagging is. 

  Yes I need to practice and get better true, make Master and then compete at that level and I am believe me but honestly it is going to take some time and many people are in this boat.  In the meantime, if we had FAIR competitions about we could be competing with others at the same level of play and having even more fun that we do now. 

• neildiamond11790 1,115 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 10:41 AM

  I like the idea, but I dont think you can ever get rid of sandbaggers, we can only hope they add things to help minimize them, or even better point them out and remove them from tourneys.

  My idea is kind of like yours, more of a per hole statistic.  Personally I would like to see ready-go tourney average, single play tourney average, saved score cards for all rounds and my favorite which is kind of your line of thinking a birdie per hole average.  People play non-sense ranked rounds, can be -5 throw 8 holes, and then take a 10 on the last hole and bam, 71 average.  The birdie per hole average would show .45%.  Someone who shoots on average par, should have a birdie average closer to 0%.  Somoene who shoots 58 on average would have greater than .5%.  The birdie per hole average should also be recorded in match play events as well.

• AvatarLee 1,644 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 11:20 AM

  With all due respect Jay, I think you may be looking at the issue a bit backwards.  Here is why I think that:

  Sandbagging, as it is applied to golf here and in the real world, is the practice of purposely posting (far) worse than your typical score based on your current skill level to obtain an advantage in competition.  

  Reverse Sandbagging, as seen here almost exclusively, is dropping rounds that are (far) worse than your typical score based on your current skill level.  This is done out of ego, or to progress tiers faster by artificially deflating your average, and then gain access to better equipment.

  So what's the difference?  Sandbaggers will relish and keep the bad scores, so your solution does not apply, and you will still be faced with Masters in Pro's clothing.  Reverse Sandbaggers only really hurt themselves as far as competition is concerned because they are not able to play to the level that they have achieved.

  Often times, I believe, a person who was once a 'reverse sandbagger' and realizes the err of his/her ways with his/her original account, then steps outside the rules and creates a second, third, .... account for the purpose of true sandbagging.

• jayjonbeach 689 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 11:41 AM

  Yeah its not foolproof for sure, multiple accounts are a way around pretty much everything and we can only hope that they are cracking down it. 

  If a true sandbagger, someone who wants to post bad scores, has every single hole ranked, and if only 10 good games out of 14 count (4 bad ones in total being discarded) it will become more difficult (not impossible) for them to keep their average high.  They will have to play a lot of really bad games to do it AND they will have to play all the holes of one round bad, not just a few.  The flip side also is when they are competing, every good hole of golf will count and should be weighted more heavily towards someones average (like 9 holes in tourney mode counts as 18 towards average).  

  Maybe your right though, the every hole ranked doesnt really make it that much more difficult, it just forces them to play a lot of crappy holes instead of playing 7 good holes and duffing only 2 to make a bad round.  The weighting of anything tourney versus normal ranked play would for sure really help.  Earnings can be considered too.

  ND's idea is good as well, more stats will help to show the "truth" of what people are up to. 

  I think the bottom line is no matter how it is executed and how the math is done, there is a simple solution to these issues and the site will be better off once implemented.  Fairness should be strived for and with a little thought on WGT's part, can be achieved I believe. 

• VanHalenLover 1,422 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:05 PM

  I've posted on other threads, but never really gotten much feedback about the simplest of suggestions.

  What do you all think about just simply doing away with the 'forfeit' option?

  If a player has no choice but to have to finish a round after it is dropped, I'm convinced it will prevent dropping (at least score saving related drops) altogether.

  No penalties are needed with this scenario, because the rounds have to be finished before a player can move on to another game, ANY other game.

  Internet connection issues and /or WGT server issues won't punish players, other than to force players to finish that round individually at a later time.

  I'm not seeing any drawbacks to this simple fix, but I'm open for feedback.

• neildiamond11790 1,115 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:32 PM

  avatar, I agree with the reverse sandbagging, and it really hurts nobody in the end since that person has advanced to far to quickly and will not do any better in the paying tournaments as a result.

  However, the regular sandbagging is the real crime since these players are either winning pro tourneys when they should be masters, or taking peoples credits away in match play credits by saying they are 74 average, but really shoot to a mid to high 60's average.  Thats not fair.

• OaktheToke 409 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 1:02 PM

  Jay, this doesn't do anything related to sandbagging, just reverse sandbagging.  People will still post occasional higher-than-normal scores to maintain a higher-than-appropriate avg.  You do still have the weeklies to compete in.  :)

  VHL, also does nothing for sandbagging.  The "forfeit" option is only in Multiplayer and Match Play.  In Multiplayer it would have the same effect as Jay's idea and in Match Play it would solve nothing since since a forfeit affects their record and no stats are recorded anyways.

  There's 1, and only 1 way to potentially solve sandbagging and that would be extremely time consuming, tedious, and arbitrary.  That would be to basically have a virtual ranger, who reviewed ranked player rounds, marked players for further review, issued warnings, and delivered punishment or recommended punishment to someone else at WGT.  Again this would be extremely time consuming and perhaps not even necessary.

  As it stands I believe WGT does look at the tourny winners and people who are recommended to them as cheaters.

  And there's only 1 way for sure to know that you're not competing against a sandbagger, improve your skills and compete against others Masters on a level playing field. :)

  Lower tiered RG's should never probably happen.  The incorporation of such a tournament would increase sandbagging to biblical proportions, something that would be virtually unmanageable.  

  "What do I mean, biblical?  What I mean is Old Testament, real wrath of God type stuff.  Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies!  Rivers and seas boiling!  Forty years of darkness!  Earthquakes, volcanoes.  The dead rising from the grave!  Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"

• AvatarLee 1,644 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 1:10 PM

  OaktheToke:

  "What do I mean, biblical?  What I mean is Old Testament, real wrath of God type stuff.  Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies!  Rivers and seas boiling!  Forty years of darkness!  Earthquakes, volcanoes.  The dead rising from the grave!  Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"

  Enough! I get the point! And what if you're wrong?

• jayjonbeach 689 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 1:18 PM

  OaktheToke:

  "What do I mean, biblical?  What I mean is Old Testament, real wrath of God type stuff.  Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies!  Rivers and seas boiling!  Forty years of darkness!  Earthquakes, volcanoes.  The dead rising from the grave!  Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"

  LMAO - You mean the Mayan calendar......

  Well I'm not sure I totally agree and like I said, just put more weight on tourney's for your average to make it even harder, this should probably be done anyway. 

  For the quitting thing, you could have even a single player game that gets disconnected, have to be finished, this doesnt totally solve the problem since someone can just pick up and still submit a bad round, it does hurt the reverse sandbagger more but I am much more concerned with the true sandbagger, the cheaters who are keeping their average high on purpose.

  Lets not forget here, how OBVIOUS would it become if someone had to duff EVERY hole to make their average go up?  I think you guys are missing this point.  Right now, someone can shoot 7 or 8 holes and duff one hole for a bad round, hard to prove anything there.  If someone shoots 31 in a couple tourneys and submits 6 games worth of BAD holes afterwards (since 4 dont count), dont you think that is going to get noticed?   And see, it wont just be a bad round, it will be horrendous  since every hole will have to be bad in order to keep the average higher. 

  Yes I still think per hole ranking will help flush these cheaters out and make it harder for them to do it, not eliminate them entirely, but with stats that are more detailed and per hole ranking, they will get caught.

  I think a combination of an adjusted average, (however if it gets arrived at mathematically) adjusted weight on tournements, a Ranger and more stats can combat these cheaters once and for all and sooner the better

• OaktheToke 409 Posts

  Fri, Feb 12 2010 1:52 PM

  AvatarLee:

  OaktheToke:

  "What do I mean, biblical?  What I mean is Old Testament, real wrath of God type stuff.  Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies!  Rivers and seas boiling!  Forty years of darkness!  Earthquakes, volcanoes.  The dead rising from the grave!  Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"

  Enough! I get the point! And what if you're wrong?

  If I'm wrong, then nothing happens.  I'll take a ban from Niviac.  Peacefully, quietly, I'll enjoy it.  But if I'm right, and we can stop this thing,  Lee........you will have saved the integrity of the e-handicaps for millions of registered WGT posters.