Forums

VEM in WGT explained

• Richard4168 4,309 Posts

  Sun, Jun 9 2013 3:49 PM

  WGTniv:

  Wow, you guys have made this so amazingly more complicated than it is.  Let me see what I can do to simplify this...

  The game is pretty simple.  Precision controls your accuracy.  Imagine it's like a circle that surrounds the flagstick when you aim at it.  The size of that circle is related to the precision rating.  The higher the rating the smaller the circle.  Your ball can land anywhere in the circle on a dinged shot (left or right, long or short).  It will ALWAYS land in the circle on a ding shot, though sometimes it may land in the center of the circle and sometimes it may land on the very outer edge or anywhere in between those two points.  When it lands on the outer edge this is what you guys have come to know as "the beast".  Was the shot pre-programmed? Does it know you're standing on the 17th hole at Kiawah?  No, it's just unfortunate timing.  The result you see is the logical spread dictated by the precision rating of the club over 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 shots taken on the site.  No matter how big or small the sample it's amazingly consistent because it is after all only a simple mathematical formula.  The shot data is spread out amongst all users, so there will be times when you run into a lot of "edge cases" (aka deviations, aka outside edge of the precision circle) and times where you seemingly can't miss the center (even when you mishit).  This is the ebb and flow of the game and it's always been there.  In the short term you will have "bad" days and "good" days.  In the long term (providing they are using the same clubs) any one player will see the same amount of "edge cases" or "deviations" that the rest of the players do.

  And that's all there is to it!  The other theories can be put to bed.  There's no behind the scenes tweaking, no changing club attributes based on skill and no hidden mechanism that knows when you're on a water hole.  It's just a formula that runs exactly the same for every single shot and it has no idea (nor does it care) where you are on the course.  It doesn't matter if it's the first tee shot on #1 or the winning 10-foot putt in the USGA Virtual Championship.  The formula runs the exact same calculation every single time and you're always at risk for an "edge case".  How far away an "edge case" can take you depends solely on your precision rating for that club.  The higher the precision rating (and conversely the more lofted the iron) the less "edge cases" will take you away from where you aimed. 

  Course releases have ZERO affect on your clubs. When a course is released it's just assets, hole maps, minimaps, HD photos and stuff that has absolutely no affect on your clubs.  Us adding a JPG picture file (or 100,000 of them) does not change the way your approach shot on Kiawah #2 interacts with the green.  Each course has it's own settings and each course comes with it's own set of "surfaces".   If you go into Oakmont expecting your clubs to interact the same way they do on Kiawah then you've already made your first mistake.  Every course has it's own nuances right down to how the ball is affected by elevation and break and you'll have to figure that out with practice.  While adjusting to those nuances you may forget the nuances you learned on the older courses and get stuck in between your adjustments.  That happens to me too.  A new course comes out and suddenly I can't make a putt on Kiawah because I've spent so much time learning how to play the new breaks on Oakmont.  As a result I end up over-playing breaks on everything for a short time while I adjust.

  Hope that clears some of this confusion up.  You fellas certainly come up with some wild ideas, but it's no where near as complicated or convoluted as some of you seem to think it is.  Remember, keep it simple because it really is simple.

   

• geraldlarousse 1,986 Posts

  Sun, Jun 9 2013 5:21 PM

   

  WGTniv:

  Wow, you guys have made this so amazingly more complicated than it is.  Let me see what I can do to simplify this...

  The game is pretty simple.  Precision controls your accuracy.  Imagine it's like a circle that surrounds the flagstick when you aim at it.  The size of that circle is related to the precision rating.  The higher the rating the smaller the circle.  Your ball can land anywhere in the circle on a dinged shot (left or right, long or short).  It will ALWAYS land in the circle on a ding shot, though sometimes it may land in the center of the circle and sometimes it may land on the very outer edge or anywhere in between those two points.  When it lands on the outer edge this is what you guys have come to know as "the beast".  Was the shot pre-programmed? Does it know you're standing on the 17th hole at Kiawah?  No, it's just unfortunate timing.  The result you see is the logical spread dictated by the precision rating of the club over 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 shots taken on the site.  No matter how big or small the sample it's amazingly consistent because it is after all only a simple mathematical formula.  The shot data is spread out amongst all users, so there will be times when you run into a lot of "edge cases" (aka deviations, aka outside edge of the precision circle) and times where you seemingly can't miss the center (even when you mishit).  This is the ebb and flow of the game and it's always been there.  In the short term you will have "bad" days and "good" days.  In the long term (providing they are using the same clubs) any one player will see the same amount of "edge cases" or "deviations" that the rest of the players do.

   

   

  LOL, BS!! Joke right? The circle must be 20 yards wide now?

  But i did enjoy the read, because now i know for certain that all players are NOT getting same conditions and Vem in same rounds. I like the short and long term deal, LOL.

  Thank you for the enlightenment. 

  Hmmmm, looks like lotto tickets are starting to take awhile to buy now, hehe. Filling up very slowly now. Seems players are getting your message. Please continue, i'm am sure in a few lotto tickets will be extinct. :-)

  R.I.P. Ready go!

• Dougie4042 4,410 Posts

  Mon, Jun 10 2013 4:59 AM

  MBaggese:

  Anyways, as long as I'm not playing in a beer induced coma, I remember these things, don't get frustrated, etc...and just try to combat the best as I can and relax.

  I like your style, M!

• Oldstir 434 Posts

  Mon, Jun 10 2013 9:10 PM

  lvietri:

  I remembered this thread

  http://www.wgt.com/forums/t/8462.aspx?PageIndex=4

  Thanks, that forum reference from 2010 seems to be a straight forward explanation and completely logical; so I don't see why the topic is even being raised. However, with regard to having a "fair playing field" in general for all members, it couldn't be farther from the truth and is something that continues to go completely ignored, IMO. Too many examples to mention but here's just One which proves beyond any doubt, that all is not well or fair perhaps? I was complaining that my Level 88 R11 Driver rated for 282 yards couldn't even reach the fairway from the tee box on #18 Merion even into only a slight 10 side wind. You can see that shot here if you want: http://www.wgt.com/replay.aspx?ID=3d669fd7-3717-44bc-a9ac-a1b70032222d .Absolutely ridiculous since I can reach the fairways even Directly Into a Full 21 Wind on Any other hole and any other course WGT has with the R11.

  But they said that is not unusual because #18 can be that difficult even on the Real Merion Course too and they tried to make WGT's Merion as realistic as possible. So I called the Real Merion Golf Course myself.  Well, sorry to burst the Obvious Bubble but a 57 Cut-off for Merion or any tournament is totally ridiculous and I don't think there has Ever been a Real PGA Tournament with a Cut-off of under 60 in the History of Golf? So that's about as far from "realistic" as you can get and once again and as always, Only the top 1 or 2% perhaps of highly skilled players with the Best Drivers and the Best Balls, can score such preposterously Low Qualifying scores and especially on a course they've never played before.  And I doubt that Any Of The 1 or 2% have any problem reaching the 18^th fairway on Merion even "Directly Into a Full 21 Wind" either but I could be wrong? Regardless, Merion is only a fair playing field for the Best-Of-The-Best, IMO. And #18 is nowhere near realistic to the Real Merion #18 because All the Pros use the best clubs and balls and under certain bad conditions, it is true, as one of the Pros at Merion told me; that as few as 60-70% cannot reach the fairway on #18. But probably 98-100% of WGT's 'Best' players ALWAYS reach the fairway on #18 no matter how bad the conditions are? Anyway, that's just the way it is and makes no difference to me but I'm not going to wait until I reach Level 287 just so I can buy a Driver to make sure I can hit the fairway for One Lousy Hole. LOL So I think they made a Boo-Boo on Merion and just aren't willing to admit it or fix it because if a 282-yard R11 driver cannot clear only 240 yards of rough, then something is wrong? But it's just an opinion and I'll reply nothing further on this. Kudos to everyone's under 60 great scores on Merion and kind regards to all.

   

   

• Richard4168 4,309 Posts

  Mon, Jun 10 2013 9:29 PM

  geraldlarousse:

  i know for certain that all players are NOT getting same conditions and Vem in same rounds.

  I must not see VEM that much because the scores I post are usually 30 to 33 for 9 holes, and with some consistency. Those scores are in the meaty part of mediocre.

  I wonder if VEM is more present for the players who only post their best rounds? The game is always going to throw VEM curve balls if what everyone says is true about what VEM is used for in this game.

  And how would anyone know if they were Vemmed or not? Mistakes like not adding enough power on approach shots or adding too much spin is common, for me anyway.

   

• geraldlarousse 1,986 Posts

  Mon, Jun 10 2013 9:56 PM

  Richard4168:

  geraldlarousse:

  i know for certain that all players are NOT getting same conditions and Vem in same rounds.

  I must not see VEM that much because the scores I post are usually 30 to 33 for 9 holes, and with some consistency. Those scores are in the meaty part of mediocre.

  I wonder if VEM is more present for the players who only post their best rounds? The game is always going to throw VEM curve balls if what everyone says is true about what VEM is used for in this game.

  And how would anyone know if they were Vemmed or not? Mistakes like not adding enough power on approach shots or adding too much spin is common, for me anyway.

   

  I have no idea Richard. I would say i have only withdrew maybe twice to three times in the last 20 rounds or so. Which i think has rounds from 28's-32. 

  I would also say that i do not want the same exact shot for every same hit, but with that being said i would like it to be close enough to figure the shot.

  I could not play for credit up until recently. Since then i have noticed a big increase in strange shots. I do know that since i have cut my playing Vem seems to have settled a bit.

  I really have no issues with Vem. My only problem is fair playing field, and IMO we do not have that. Did you read the part about short term and long term, what is that?

  When trying to compete against some of the best here, cannot be having WTF moments during the round and expect to be close to the lead. 

  Reason being the leader will have shot the lowest score possible most of the time. That is all i'm saying. Some of these shots you can not recover and make birdie. Fair to say you will agree with me on that.

• lee22sharon 1,419 Posts

  Mon, Jun 10 2013 10:36 PM

  Okay, it's been answered, it's been said, and it's been talked to death.  Is it possable to put this whole VEM thing to bed now?  my nickle.

   

• MBaggese 15,367 Posts

  Mon, Jun 10 2013 11:25 PM

  lee22sharon:

  Okay, it's been answered, it's been said, and it's been talked to death.  Is it possable to put this whole VEM thing to bed now?  my nickle.

   

  Sorry Lee...you must endure;)

• lee22sharon 1,419 Posts

  Mon, Jun 10 2013 11:39 PM

  MBaggese:

  lee22sharon:

  Okay, it's been answered, it's been said, and it's been talked to death.  Is it possable to put this whole VEM thing to bed now?  my nickle.

   

  Sorry Lee...you must endure;)

  Awww! Krap!  our nickle.

  lol.

   

• thebigeasy707 5,885 Posts

  Tue, Jun 11 2013 1:05 AM

  

  Early Morning Edition! Reporting MRenn's 346 Yrd 8 Iron

  See the shot here!