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Re: putting actuality

• longball2006 60 Posts

  Sat, Oct 9 2010 9:33 PM

  it is true that a putt will break more at the end than at the beginning.  Why...WHY will a putt move almost immediately off the putter...even if it is for one block or less?  Considering that the first foot+ of most putts are airborne?

• jcs89 172 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 3:54 PM

  First of all, im not sure this game simulates the putt being airborne.  And a putt usually breaks more at the end because the ball is rolling more slowly....more speed= less break, less speed = more break.  That is why you see many players hit very short putts aggressively...to eliminate the break.

• CharlemagneRH 1,054 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 4:09 PM

  Putting is more complicated than simply saying that they break more at the end.

  They break more at the end in terms of change in angle, but they do not break more at the end in terms of how much distance left or right you should aim.  A small change in direction early can mean a large left/right movement by the time the ball stops rolling.  In fact, if you have the same break at the beginning of the putt as you do at the end, usually the break at the start will match or overpower the break at the end.

  The reason why breaks at the end even come close to the significance of breaks at the beginning is because the ball is moving slowly at that point, and it succumbs to the forces of gravity, pulling it down the hill.  Severe downhill putts, which have to be hit softly, are always traveling slowly, which means they will break a lot more than flat or uphill putts.

• longball2006 60 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 7:27 PM

  I am well aware of that, thanks.  As a product suggestion......early stages of a struck putt should only be affected by the terrain about 18% at 10' compared to rolling at a speed which would drop once it reaches the hole.  The shorter the putt, the greater the percentage of terrain affect, and vice-versa.

• CharlemagneRH 1,054 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 8:32 PM

  The early stages of the putt do have diminished angular acceleration on the putt path, for reasons explained in my last post, namely the fact that the ball is traveling, in most putts, the fastest at the very beginning.  Generally speaking, the longer the putt, the faster it's going out of the gate, and the ball powers through early breaks, but nonetheless, a small change in direction early can mean a lot if the putt is long.  For example, a 5 degree change in direction to the right, over 30 ft, means it sends the ball 2.6 ft to the right.  If there is a late break, 5 ft from the hole, back to the left, it has to make the ball turn 31 degrees in order to offset the early 5-degree break.  Simple trigonometry shows us how early breaks are extremely hard to deal with -- if you're just a tiny bit off with your guess, the ball will end up far away from where you expected it to.

  Sometimes it does turn sour right off the face of the putter, but I believe it to be because of hidden bumps on the green, which the grid system can't accurately display, and possibly putter precision as well.  I don't believe it has anything to do with early breaks being too strong, but rather because the grid system doesn't allow you to see every tiny detail of the green, only giving you a rough idea of the shape of the sometimes much more detailed putting surface.  Tiny, hidden bumps are rarely found on STA F9, KIA B9, or BPB greens, but they are quite common on STA B9, Oakmont, and especially KIA F9 (holes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7).

• cabbagehed 1 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 8:55 PM

  putting is an unpredictable gamble Im done with this

• longball2006 60 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 8:56 PM

  I find the issues prevelant on any green that has radical shift early on. I have mainly been playing St Andrews lately. Theory of Physics and actual golf are two different beasts. I am the expert at the latter.

• CharlemagneRH 1,054 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 9:49 PM

  If you remove the possibility of your problems coming from the somewhat rare hidden bump or valley, or the mathematical laws which I referenced before (i.e. the stuff about the 5-degree and 31-degree angles), then there is only one other possible source for your problems that I know of, which is, pretty much as you were saying, that you think WGT simply has the physics wrong.

  It's hard to say whether WGT's ball roll behavior is based upon physics calculations (with possible adjustments if those produced undesirable results) or data observed from actual, real-world putts (i.e. they took balls and putt them across/up/down angled platforms at different speeds and analyzed videos of this in order to observe magnitude of break and rate of acceleration/deceleration at given terrain angles and ball speeds,) but I wouldn't rule out the idea that WGT is open hearing about how their system does not include real-world phenomenon, such as bounce off the putter face.

  I doubt they tested for that, though, and their code probably doesn't take into consideration whether or not the ball is fresh off the putter's face.  Instead, it is probably based simply on velocity and angle of the terrain, so your complaint has merit, and there probably should be a special adjustment for the first 5% or so of a putt.

• birdwell 561 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 9:55 PM

  I think what Charleman is getting at is that, if you mis-read an early break, your ball is more likely to end up far far away from the hole, especially on long puts. A mis-read on a later break, and it 's probably matter of a foot or two at the worst.

  I think we could all agree on that. As far as how to read that early break, well, your both wrong.. lol

  longball is saying that it should break less, because the velocity of the ball is greater.

  Charleman is saying it breaks even more - because the ball has to travel more distance after it breaks

  but really, factor all this in, and seems to me that you need to read both exactly the same

  ...or something like that!

   

• birdwell 561 Posts

  Sun, Oct 10 2010 10:00 PM

  CharlemagneRH:

  as jcs said, in the real-world, the ball sort of bounces a bit at the start of a putt, leaving the ground at times, in which case a special adjustment should be made for the first few feet of a putt?

   

  I do think there should be some consideration for that - at least on the fringe. The fact that our virtual balls never get the least bit airborne off the face of our virtual putters make delicate putts from the fringe impossible.