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Sandbagging Changes

• phiber 2,795 Posts

  Tue, Jan 22 2013 9:52 AM

  First of all, it's good to see WGT put in some proactive measures to stop sandbagging especially for those that use it as an advantage in credits play.  It will surely catch some of the sandbaggers and put them on the same tees as their opponents.

  I need some help in understanding the other side of that picture as far as "free" players go.  There have been any number of instances where Masters, and Tour Masters have actively sought free play matches with Legends and defeated them in match play to lower their average and be moved up to the Legend Tier more quickly rather than shooting the rounds/scores it takes to get to that Tier.

  In an in club investigation we discovered that some TM's were actually offering sleeves of balls to Legends to allow the Legends to be defeated so the TM could become a Legend.  I certainly don't think that is the norm but it is happening.  Also, some Legends were allowing TM's to beat them so they could move up to the Legend Tier.  In other cases, TM's would go out and defeat  Legends in match play and it was a good clean match.

  I am having a hard time accepting that as a proper means of moving up to Legend, and if I am wrong, I am willing to listen to others feelings and interpretations of what is becoming the norm for moving up to Legend Tier.  All of that being said, the guys that are doing this, in my opinion, are moving up without really being prepared for it, and in a few cases, they are leveled so low that they will not be able to acquire equipment that will allow them to perform well at that Tier.

  If I am wrong in assuming that this is not an ethical way to advance, Please tell me so, but it just seems to me that players have discovered this method and are using it instead of actually qualifying for the Tier.

  Sure willing to listen to what others have to say!

  LD

• PUHOLINO 1,189 Posts

  Tue, Jan 22 2013 10:23 AM

  phiber:

  If I am wrong in assuming that this is not an ethical way to advance, Please tell me so, but it just seems to me that players have discovered this method and are using it instead of actually qualifying for the Tier.

   

  The fact some people use this method to advance may or may not be unethical, but it definitely is stupid beyond belief. It basically means they're willing to play from tees they're completely unprepared for, just so their ID could have "legend" written below it. I wonder how they'll feel when their avg suddenly get to be above 70?

  The bigger problem with this system is the fact it's not the winning percentage that counts but only total wins. I played against a CC buddy a few days ago, he's a great guy and a decent player, a TM with a 68+ avg. It was our 19th scored MP (all of them free). He beat me for the first time after 18 losses. He played pretty good, I didn't. His avg dropped 2 full strokes!!! For an 1 out of 19 record! That's not even close to being reasonable, but I believe we've been discussing that for almost 2 months since the middle of October.

  Now imagine all these "new" legends who all of a sudden can't control any aspect of their game from the tips. They will enter MPs against mediocre masters and TMs and since they can't play from the tips and they now shoot par on a good day, they will lose every single one of those MPs. These average masters will subsequently tier up and become even more unprepared legends themselves. Do you see a potential pattern and a problem with this? And where this will lead to?

  i'm glad I made it the old fashioned way, before all this nonsense was implemented. It felt awesome! Luckily, all of these changes only influence tiers below legend, so when I reach TL tier, I'll now I earned it again and it will feel even better.

• oneputtdavid 1,337 Posts

  Tue, Jan 22 2013 10:29 AM

  phiber:

  In an in club investigation we discovered that some TM's were actually offering sleeves of balls to Legends to allow the Legends to be defeated so the TM could become a Legend.

  As a Legend, any TM who gift's me a sleeve of balls for a MP!  I'm your huckleberry!  Just to make it fair I'll use starter balls!

• 9,041 Posts

  Tue, Jan 22 2013 11:19 AM

  phiber:

   Also, some Legends were allowing TM's to beat them so they could move up to the Legend Tier.

  I was going to say 'it'd have to be a good friend for me to do that' but thinking about it, being a 'good friend' I wouldn't..

  Andy

• phiber 2,795 Posts

  Tue, Jan 22 2013 11:27 AM

  PUHOLINO:

  phiber:

  If I am wrong in assuming that this is not an ethical way to advance, Please tell me so, but it just seems to me that players have discovered this method and are using it instead of actually qualifying for the Tier.

  Now imagine all these "new" legends who all of a sudden can't control any aspect of their game from the tips. They will enter MPs against mediocre masters and TMs and since they can't play from the tips and they now shoot par on a good day, they will lose every single one of those MPs. These average masters will subsequently tier up and become even more unprepared legends themselves. Do you see a potential pattern and a problem with this? And where this will lead to?

  i'm glad I made it the old fashioned way, before all this nonsense was implemented. It felt awesome! Luckily, all of these changes only influence tiers below legend, so when I reach TL tier, I'll now I earned it again and it will feel even better.

  Oh yes, I clearly see this happening and what it is leading to.  It is creating a potential problem

  I, too am glad I made it the old fashioned way, a sense of accomplishment for sure!

  I pm'd WGT pizza about this a few days ago but haven't heard from him about it.  

  If I am wrong in my assumptions I would really like to know, I can change the way I feel about it but right now I do not feel good about this happening, at all.

  LD

   

• phiber 2,795 Posts

  Tue, Jan 22 2013 11:28 AM

  alcaucin:

  phiber:

   Also, some Legends were allowing TM's to beat them so they could move up to the Legend Tier.

  I was going to say 'it'd have to be a good friend for me to do that' but thinking about it, being a 'good friend' I wouldn't..

  Andy

  I fully agree with you!   If it were a good friend I would tell them to stay there and learn because they would need the skills and knowledge they picked up as they did move up "the old fashioned way".

• phiber 2,795 Posts

  Wed, Jan 23 2013 6:11 AM

  oneputtdavid:

  phiber:

  In an in club investigation we discovered that some TM's were actually offering sleeves of balls to Legends to allow the Legends to be defeated so the TM could become a Legend.

  As a Legend, any TM who gift's me a sleeve of balls for a MP!  I'm your huckleberry!  Just to make it fair I'll use starter balls!

  LOL OPD

   

• senec 254 Posts

  Wed, Jan 23 2013 7:37 AM

  This is a serious problem for WGT.Imagine all these level 60ish legends.They are so proud!!!But not for long,cause if they don't have the equipment their average will be in the seventies and there is no fun in playing even par when you're used to 30's and 31's.So they tell all their friends not to move up,cause it's hell from the back tees,or they help bring them up by loosing match plays.

  Already WGT is plagued with veteran legends who are loosing interest and feel that WGT as let them down;all these new legends may also loose interest cause they can't get the equipment and they don't have the skill and the perseverence to get to the level where they can get the big guns.It's a vicious cercle.

  Less sandbaggers,more cheaters,or the opposite.

  Is WGT profiting $$$ from this,I don't think so.

• TeeTimeSmitty 1,973 Posts

  Wed, Jan 23 2013 8:11 AM

  I can understand what you guys are saying but the system seems to be working tho. I have seen Country Club members who were deffinatly sandbagging now not entering CC tourneys for prizes which was unfair to others. They are stuck playing Alt shot or CTTH or they get caught up. I personally enjoyed seeing that happen. It was stopping some of the lower tiered players from entering because they didnt feel they could compete against the sandbaggers scores. Now there is once again more participation from the lower tiers.

• phiber 2,795 Posts

  Wed, Jan 23 2013 8:21 AM

  I think that is probably very true Smitty, but that isn't what I am seeing.  Most of these guys weren't sandbagging at all.  They  just discovered that they could find Legends to defeat  and shortcut getting to Legend Tier because of the sandbagging change impacting scoring.  It seems they just want to get the name Legend on their profile page and doing it this way saves them time and balls I guess.  I think it will cost them more in the long run though.