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Some thoughts from a noob

• srellim234 2,077 Posts

  Tue, Sep 14 2010 5:40 PM

  YankeeJim:

  I think it does. Play from the higher ranked player's Tee.

  We don't wager but a close personal friend (Pro) and I (Master) have tried ranked match play. We tee off from our respective tee boxes; only the green speed defaults to the higher ranked player's level.

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 4:54 AM

  srellim234:

  We tee off from our respective tee boxes; only the green speed defaults to the higher ranked player's level.

  This is correct but I'm saying the Tees should too.  :-)

• Pangaea 242 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 4:59 AM

  Then you could forget about getting any match from anybody of lower tier than yourself. What Pro would want to tee off from the back tees against players better than themselves? They'd get their *** handed to them.

  The current system isn't ideal, but the one you propose is worse IMO. I don't like teeing off further back from others in my CC either, but at least it is more fair (or less unfair) than them teeing off from my spot if I play them.

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 5:02 AM

  Pangaea:

  Then you could forget about getting any match from anybody of lower tier than yourself. What Pro would want to tee off from the back tees against players better than themselves? They'd get their *** handed to them.

  Now you know how Legends feel. If you want to play against a higher tier player you should meet them on their terms. JMO

• Pangaea 242 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 6:09 AM

  Implement that, and nobody would want to face players or higher tier. There needs to be some way to even the playing field. I think a proper handicap system would be better though, as that would be more dynamic. Instead of 7 tiers (or 4 tees) there would be almost an infinite number.

  Remember there are more than legends playing this game, and designing the game for their wants would put most others off. At least legends (or masters) have shown good skill, so it's less unfair to put them further back than a Pro, compared to everybody teeing off from the same tee, no matter skill level or equipment.

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 6:52 AM

  Pangaea:

  Implement that, and nobody would want to face players or higher tier

  Pangaea:

  There needs to be some way to even the playing field.

  Compare those 2 statements. The first one implies tiers would only play within themselves. The second one mentions "even the playing field." How much more even does it get then playing in your own tier?   ;-)

  Evening the playing field when different tiers play is built in, sorta, by the difference in Tees and Green Speeds. The Legend tier has it most difficult but they are also the best players.It isn't as good as a hdcp system would be but it works.

• Crazyman2 731 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 7:38 AM

  A simple cure

  To run the system fairly - you will need to abolish the wgt avg method  and impliment a correct handicap system.  There would be no need for "levels" or any worry about "sandbagging"  Why?  because sandbagging is not possible  using the system in its correct way.....

  It is NOT difficult and is being used NOW to great effect  .

  There is no need for tee adjustments  or green conditions.  All players will tee off from same tee  , all will  play same green speed.  The only difference is a correct handicap adjustment. No need to lock clubs away.  No need for lesser players to feel that they don't have a chance.  As in the "real" game the lower handicapper will eventually prevail over a series as they are the most consistent.  This means that ALL players would need to play to their best ability to obtain success.

  I have successfully been using an "official" handicapping system and have adapted it for use in WGT games since January and the results speak for themselves.  I have now adapted the CC to also run handicap based comps allowing all members the opportunity to have a "fighting chance" against whoever is playing.

  Handicaps adjusted on a per game basis.

  Quitters = ZERO

  Complaints = ZERO

  Winners = NUMEROUS

  Maybe  the "better" players  wouldn't agree to this change as it could prevent them from winning each and every comp they enter, but it would surely appeal to the greater majority of  the clientelle.  (The bulk of  the revenue)

  WGT have shot themselves in the foot with these latest changes and as a business model it must have been thought up in a kindergarten!  

  A company is supposed to satisfy its customers  not alienate them. People are threatening to leave in their drones akin to the great diaspora, migrating to pastures new!    Surely WGT  needs to recognise this fact, or  are they simply prepared to let it die?

   

• Pangaea 242 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 8:48 AM

  YankeeJim:

  Compare those 2 statements. The first one implies tiers would only play within themselves. The second one mentions "even the playing field." How much more even does it get then playing in your own tier?   ;-)

  You don't need to try and split hair or create an argument where there isn't one. You know very well what I meant. And you should also have the ability to see things from an other's perspective than your own, and therefore understand it would be vastly more unfair generally speaking to have all tee off from where the highest tiered player is teeing off from. It would make it utterly impossible for anybody but the best player to win anything, and would effectively kill matches between tiers.

  I also mention a proper handicap system would be better, which is where the site should be heading I think. That would hopefully even the playing field much better than the tier system. But before that happens, the current system is much more fair than the one you propose, and does indeed even the playing field somewhat. After all, it takes skill to tier up, and players in a high tier is more likely to have better equipment. To then let a Pro tee off from the same tee as a Master or Legend, with likely worse equipment and skill, is very far from fair.

  Sure, legends would win with their eyes closed and you'd have fun for a while. But would it really be fun long-term to win by 10 strokes because the other player can't handle the distance at all, and in addition is at a disadvantage skill-wise?

  I can see the problem with great Tour Master playing against Legends, but apart from that there isn't a huge problem. Scores imply legends are doing quite well with the new tees, and are certainly competitive in RGs, as they rake in most wins from what I have seen.

  I understand your position, but I don't agree with it.

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 9:06 AM

  Actually Pangaea, I wasn't looking to split hairs or create an argument. It looked to me like you were saying one thing and solving it with another.

  I do consider this situation from other perspectives because it's basically a role reversal of sorts. Pro used to be able to hang with Masters before the update. The hardest matches to win were the ones where the Pro had a long driver from the shorter tee.. You had to be on your game. Just look at the sandbagging issue. Now it's the same with Legends/TMs. It won't be long before TMs are bagging their way around the RGs because of the update, not to mention the new IDs created just in time to take advantage of the Pro Shop sale.

  If I wind up in a game with a Legend it is patently unfair. We have the same equipment but don't start from the same place. Even a hdcp system isn't going to fix that. I, for one, don't like winning that way.

• Crazyman2 731 Posts

  Wed, Sep 15 2010 9:31 AM

  YankeeJim:

  Even a hdcp system isn't going to fix that.

  Of course a Handicap system would solve it.  It is simple and effective  and WILL  prevent all the problems  of sandbagging  and would allow playing off a level playing field for all legends-masters pros etc etc