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BPB Holes 5 and 10 - Professional Tier

• AtlantaCoaster 645 Posts

  Sat, May 30 2009 7:08 AM

  Hi all...

  Like the rest of you, I have been practicing and learning Bethpage Black and doing my best to work through some of the idiosyncracies.  I've been reviewing the Forum posts and making my own observations as I play - and I think it is time to share my views.

  I am centering my discussion around Holes 5 and 10 which share many similarities - and seem to be the source of some controversy.

  I came onto WGT on May 25th to find that new tiers had been added and that I had been classed into the "Pro" Tier.  WGT has stated that the intention for introducing the new tiers was to "level" the playing field (so to speak) between players of differing ability.  This, I understand.  Hold that thought - I will come back to it later.

  I began to work my way through Bethpage - and I have now played it enough that I can share some observations and share some conclusions.

  The drive on holes 5 and 10 are much the same in terms of distance.  It became quite apparent that with my Starter Driver (230 yds), I would NEVER reach the fairway on either of these holes.  It was simply too far.  As such, I ponyed up the $7 and upgraded to a Taylormade Driver (240 yds).  This solved SOME OF the problem.

  Even so - on Holes 5 and 10  I cannot reach the fairway UNLESS there is a tailwind AND *I hit it on the screws and have it aimed perfectly* (aiming particularly critical on #5).  In the instances where I do reach the fairway, it is basically anticlimatic.  On either hole, I am generally in the first 3 or 4 yards of the fairway after having bounced (IF LUCKY)  through some rough.  * NOTE on the section I have enclosed by asterisks above - I want to acknowledge that it is COMPLETELY understandable to expect this kind of accuracy from Pro/Master level players. 

  Hitting the fairway - on either hole - in essence, doesn't matter much.  I am still left with an untenable second shot with too much distance combined with (particularly on 5) a dramatic uphill change in elevation THAT CAN NEVER BE REACHED WITH THE SECOND SHOT.  EVER.

  The second shot on each hole is in essence a layup into either the furthest reach of the short fairway OR into the rough in the 50 yards preceding each green.  Depends on my mood which option I take.  If my first shot landed in the pre-fairway rough, then a second shot "layup" into the furthest part of the fairway to set up the 3rd shot is most commonly what I have to do (which is MOST times - remember, landing in the fairway to begin with on the drive is nearly unattainable).

  To sum it up, I HAVE TO treat these holes like they are Par 5s.  I HAVE TO count on 3 shots to reach the green and HOPE that I can sink it in 1 putt to attain a Par.  Birdies will be out of the question UNLESS I hit a very lucky 3rd shot.  *I will again comment that I completely understand that an ability to do this should be expected of Pro/Master level players - it essentially forces short-game accuracy to make up for what cannot be accomplished with distance.  I get that logic.*

  Here is the thing that I am thinking:  Should we not have the option to purchase a realistic driver?  I am talking about something that attains 250-260 (assuming flat terrain / no wind) but has the ability to bounce roll etc as far as 280 if struck perfectly and other conditions (hitting downhill as on 5) OR with a tail wind.  Something that if struck perfectly WOULD make the greens reachable in regulation?

  As great a job and wonderful feat that WGT has acocmplished with this game in terms of being realistic, this is a true deficiency in my opinion - the lack of any means for a player from the Pro tees to reach the green in regulation - it simply cannot be done with the current distances and equipment.

  MAKE NO MISTAKE I LOVE THE GAME - but I would like to see this issue addressed.

  Although my discussion has centered around the obvious holes of 5 and 10, there are similar issues with other holes as well - the 508 yard PAR 4 12th, for example.  Good Luck. with THAT.

  Now - back to that thought from the beginning of my message...this idea of the different Tiers levelling the playing field, so to speak.  I hate to sound like sour grapes - but due to the deficiency in available equipment to address the distance issues I have identified, I actually feel as if the Pro tee distance distinctly DISadvantages the Pro level players.

  Am I missing something?  Is there a secret Driver we can purchase to address this?

  I would be interested to hear thoughts anyone might have to share about my conclusions and observations.

  I will CONTINUE to try to figure it out by continuing to practice.

  Best Regards, AtlantaCoaster

• mosherkl 110 Posts

  Sat, May 30 2009 7:44 AM

  Everybody playing BP in the Qualifier shoots from the farthest tee box, regardless of whether they are Masters tier or Hack tier. That's just how it is. And everyone plays with the same available clubs.

  However, I do agree with you about adding some distance. There are two sides to this argument. The accuracy argument saying we are far more accurate as far as fairways and GIR than the PGA Tour, so the decreased distance keeps the score realistic. However, I tend to fall on the side of distance at the expense of accuracy. Let me be more likely to shank a drive, so long as I can still get 260 yards out of it. I'd rather play a short iron from the rough like the pros would, than to need to roll a long iron up onto the green through the rough (oh wait, you can't do that....it's rough). To be the most realistic golf game, I think you should try to mimic as much of the Tour game as possible. Try to make the game mimic their stats for everything. Average of 270 yards instead of 235 yards on a drive, driving accuracy about 65% instead of 85-90%, etc. 

  As far as BP, it's just freaking HARD. I would expect to be shooting fairly close to what I do now if they implemented the changes I suggested above. However, I would like to be able to hit a Par 4 GIR if I really connect on my drive, instead of bouncing in the rough before the fairway and being lucky to get out and get a 100 yard short iron onto the green for my 3rd shot.

• Thetruth67 158 Posts

  Mon, Jun 1 2009 7:42 AM

  Let me be more likely to shank a drive, so long as I can still get 260 yards out of it. I'd rather play a short iron from the rough like the pros would, than to need to roll a long iron up onto the green through the rough (oh wait, you can't do that....it's rough). To be the most realistic golf game, I think you should try to mimic as much of the Tour game as possible. Try to make the game mimic their stats for everything. Average of 270 yards instead of 235 yards on a drive, driving accuracy about 65% instead of 85-90%, etc. 

  ----  I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I would like to point a couple of things out. 

   If this change were to be made, WGT would need to make the "lost ball" a much more common occurrence.  If you misclick, there nees to be a consequence.  The more you misclick the harsher the consequence resulting in lost balls and ultimately inflating scores. 

  In a way WGT has already put this method into play.  Where you may ask?  PUTTING.   Under the new system if you misclick the ball teands to be wildly off line.  Unfortunately the same people that are crying for more distance are also crying that the putting is not fair because they have to click perfect.  This is the problem and WGT is "damned if they do and damned if they don't".  They made putting more realistic by effecting the accuracy and people complain.  They limit distances off the tee and allow for more accuracy and people complain.  What the hell are they supposed to do?  If they allow for the same type of accuracy and increase the distance we will then be playing Tiger Woods golf.  I have that game, I play it on 360 and quite honestly I am tired of being 60+ under par for the tournament.

  _______________________

  The next thing I need to point out is that there will always be the games "elite" (Tibbets, Lee, Nivlac, etc.)  Currently these players are the best and are always among the top scores.  With the current system we do have a chance to compete with them we just need to have a good day clicking. 

   I have never played with Tibbets or Lee, but I assume that they rarely miss the perfect line.  If they start tinkering with the accuracy and increase the distance the only thing it will do is allow the elite to score that much better and now when I hit my couple misclicks per 18 I will not have any chance in catching them.   This is why I prefer their current system.

  ______________________________________________________________________________

  As far as BP, it's just freaking HARD. I would expect to be shooting fairly close to what I do now if they implemented the changes I suggested above. However, I would like to be able to hit a Par 4 GIR if I really connect on my drive, instead of bouncing in the rough before the fairway and being lucky to get out and get a 100 yard short iron onto the green for my 3rd shot.

   

  I am excited for the US Open this year, but oddly  enough, not for the typical reasons.  I can't wait to see pros not make some of the par 4's in 2 which will hopefully eliminate the mass hysteria that was created with the realease of the Black Beast. 

  The funny thing is that I already know what people will say. " Well Tiger did it, Phil did it, yada yada yada."  What they will fail to realize is that they are pointing out the tours "elite" and that while Tiger and Phil very well may be able to do it, Brandt Snedeker, Mark Brooks, and 35 other tour pros with less than 280 averages off the tee can't do it.  This is what seperates the good from the great and the great from the elite. 

• mosherkl 110 Posts

  Mon, Jun 1 2009 8:34 AM

  The trick would be to speed up the meter so that hitting the perfect shot isn't anywhere near as common as it is now for some of the better players. And I won't say a small mishit gives you a lost ball, but anything more than slight should be putting you well into the rough or in the trees. Anyone, on any day, can compete with the best of the best, regardless of whether you are driving 230 yards or 280 yards. I mishit a drive in real life, I'm searching the woods or taking a drop. If it's slight, I'm taking it out of the rough. Would making the change here be realistic? Yes. Unless that's not what they're striving for. I understand it's a game, not real life, but if you're looking to be the most realistic, I would think things would change to allow for greater distance at the expense of accuracy.

  And the putting.....yes, it frustrates me now. However, mishitting a putt is MY fault. When I hit a perfect putt and the deviation takes hold and makes me miss, that's the problem with the current system.

• ToughCool 70 Posts

  Mon, Jun 1 2009 8:51 AM

  mosh, I agree on putting. I don't complain about having to be perfect because at least I can move the cursor for left to right or right to left putts and at least it gives me proper distance. But the rest makes no sense....and I've explained it more than I care to from our side.

• nateman79 3 Posts

  Wed, Jun 3 2009 12:13 AM

  BOTTOM LINE. im an amateur golfer at best and i can buy a driver from kmart and hit it farther than 275 yrds. its freakin stupid that a 400 yd par 4 has me hitting a 3 wood on my second shot. i will not accept any logic that makes this game "realistic".  the cheap driver should have a distance of 245 at least. hell tiger can hit a 6 iron 225 yds.

   

• nivlac 2,188 Posts

  Wed, Jun 3 2009 12:40 AM

  Thetruth67:

  Unfortunately the same people that are crying for more distance are also crying that the putting is not fair because they have to click perfect.

  I've never complained about the hit distances but I would be the first to agree that the putting is just a bit too touchy right now.  There is the tiniest margin for error on putts under 10 feet but putts over 10 feet or so have absolutely zero margin for error and that's not quite right.

  It's also very frustrating for someone who often has meter issues on a PC that supposedly meets the game's requirements.  Most of the time when I go over 50% on the putt meter, it gets a little jumpy on the way back.  Sometimes the amount it's jumping is larger than the width of the strike line itself!  That makes it twice as hard for me to hit the mark and I'm twice as likely to miss the putt.  I lose a stroke for a technical issue that isn't supposed to be on my end in the first place.  Then you throw in deviations on top of all that and argh indeed.

  I think there needs to be a middle ground between what we have now and what we had before the 25th... maybe leaning closer to what we have now.  There has to be at least a small amount of allowable error on those longer putts.  A 1 pixel miss on a putt over 10 feet and you've missed the hole entirely unless a deviation straightened it out.   There should be an allowance for those putts in real life that get hit slightly off the toe or the heel and still manage to find their way into the cup.

• bluescouse 1,185 Posts

  Wed, Jun 3 2009 1:07 AM

  I just can't wait to see how the pro's do on the real course.

  If it's true that some of them (like us) will struggle to reach par 4's in two or even three shots, then it's going to be very interesting, especially where there is no short stuff to lay up to.

  Like a lot of us (including me), the pro's don't like to look like mere mortals on the golf course, and there is always much controversy when major courses are set up which challenge the status quo.

  Tiger and the guys always argue that spectators want to see birdie and eagle attempts on most holes, not scrambled pars and bogies.

  Me, I'm not overly bothered in either case as long as everyone is confronted with the same challenges.

  Still not sure about the distances of the clubs though. When I used to play much better real golf than I do now, I often used to outdrive the fancy dan's with my bog standard clubs and shouldn't you be able to find all the fairways and greens in regulation regardless of how much you paid for your equipment - as long as you hit it on the money of course?

  I don't really expect to find the fairway if I mishit, but I do here quite often. The putting is probably more realistic in that respect. If you don't hit it out of the middle of the club, you can't in all conscience expect it to go in.

  I'm probably a little naive as I haven't played a lot of real golf for the past couple of years, but these are just my thoughts, and I'd appreciate it if people didn't ridicule me for them.

  I'm still hurting after the cup final on Saturday!

  Sean :-(

• nickuk 967 Posts

  Wed, Jun 3 2009 3:16 AM

  im no blogger like u lot...but just to say...no golfer hits the ball perfectly straight...its left to right or visa versa....if u had to hit the ball perfect to get a decent drive..ther wld be no way of shaping the ball...i personally try and play left to right...im still crap, but without it u wld not be able to utilise the wind!

• mwb5010 33 Posts

  Wed, Jun 3 2009 3:54 AM

  All these people who are pissed about Bethpage, are just upset because they have no skill.  This is supposed to be a very difficult course, and it has the setup of the 2002 US Open.  You're not supposed to be able to reach those par 4s in 2 very easily because short hitting tour players complained about it in the very same fashion.  It's unrealistic to be able to shoot 64s on every course and every round so just stomach it, and realize that this is a very realistic course.  I like the idea for more distance and would love to see attribute points given for finishing highly on a tournament or for reaching personal milestones, like birdie streak, birdies in a round, long drive, etc.  I think this would add a great element to the game.  Unfortunately it would just make tibbets Tiger Woods that much faster.