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Rate My H'cap System Please

• Premed 776 Posts

  Wed, Apr 22 2015 8:33 AM

  I have been organising club tourneys (Majestic Mountain) for a while and decided to introduce handicaps recently. Below is the formula I use. This is based on information gathered here and elsewhere.

  Hcap = (WGTave x 0.96) -60) . This is then rounded down to the nearest whole number. All hcaps are then subject to a maximum depending on their tier

  Max Handicap by tier

  Tour  Legend        0
  Legend                 2
  Tour Master        10
  Master                 12
  Tour Pro              14
  Pro                       16
  Amateur              18

  The reason for the maximums are to ensure that certain situations and anomalies in wgt averages are mitigated against. For instance as was pointed out to me a hack starts with an average of 150 This could potentially give him a handicap of 90ish !! Also as players change tiers their average can increase hugely. For instance when I turned legend my ave shot up to over 80 because I had to get used to long tees, however that would have given me a handicap of 20ish !!

  Its also easy to implement using a spread sheet so can be updated very easily on a weekly basis.

• EasyEdward 13,507 Posts

  Wed, Apr 22 2015 12:15 PM

  The main problem with your system in my mind is that you use the WGT Average as a basis when we all know that the WGT average is not a true reflection of how well a player plays.

  What I mean by this is quite simple when you look at the example of 3 Tour Masters all with an average of 62.00. 

  Say TM#1 has played just 40 rounds as a TM and has never won a Match Play round against a Legend or Tour Legend and has never won a WGT Tournament. His scores could be say ten 30s, twenty 31s and ten 32s.  A true 62.00 average.

  Say TM#2 has played 500 rounds as a TM and again has never beaten a Legend or Tour Legend in Match Play and again has never won a WGT Tournament. This player however typically shoots a 33-35 but every once in awhile has a round where a 31 happens. Again shows a 62.00 average but not the same quality player as TM#1

  Say TM#3 has played 50 rounds and all of them were 36s and 37s BUT he got lucky in two or three Match play rounds when his Legend opponents disconnected so he was credited with the win - WGT gives him credit for the wins and he has a 62.00 average. Again not as quality a player as either TM#1 and TM#2.

  Simply put using the WGT average as a basis for a handicap system cannot work to achieve the desired result.

• Premed 776 Posts

  Wed, Apr 22 2015 6:19 PM

  I see ur point totally EE and ur right but I want to keep it simple, Im not looking for perfection, it don't exist anyway. You are comparing three TMs, i am trying to cater for a range from amateurs to legends. In your scenarios

  Your 3 TMs have the same ave, deservedly and these examples don't really highlight ur point. If these three play in a tourney the will get roughly the same score, except maybe TM3, but if he can beat legends in matchplay maybe he deserves this low ave.

  Also if TM2 has 500 rnds as a TM, and a 62 ave he would have been bumped up to legend. This guy could then see his ave escalate as he gets used to new tees but he is still a good player and gets his game together quickly but still winds up with an ave in the high 60's or low 70's, but my system caps him at a max of 2 hcap coz legends are good players and their ave jump on tiering up is artificial really.

  There may be players who "artificially" manipulate their average for gain and these are probably the real threats. But in a club with a small no of players (compared to wgt as a whole) these cheats will be easily spotted.

   

   

• hakman123 2,119 Posts

  Wed, Apr 22 2015 7:57 PM

  I do not think you have grasped the differences highlighted by EE.

  A player with a "Saturated" average (such as TM#2 above) will have a WGT average that makes him look better than his actual abilities. The real average of TM#2's 500 ranked rounds played as a TM might be 70, but because his WGT average is based only on his BEST 50 ranked rounds played as a TM - his WGT average is much lower and showing 62

  A player who is yet to reach saturation will have to have played MUCH better to have a 62 average. On average this player (TM#1) will beat TM#2 by 4 strokes over 9 holes - yet they have the same Average!

  It is not true that TM#2 would have been promoted to Legend from TM based on their Average. You need an Average of 61.00 or less to move up to Legend.

  Lastly - newly promoted players can have artificial averages both high and low. If a player took 1000 ranked rounds to get from M to TM, and then plays a round off the Easy Tees in their 1st game as TM, shooting 62 -- then the Average of 62 is flattering their abilities.

  Some players play Single Play, high winds and UEL to get a 62 Average - while others play only Unlimited, Easy settings and restart every time they don't have a good start. These 2 players might have the same Average - but if hey do have the same Ave -- Player 1 will win over Player 2 easily every time.

  I have looked at realistic ways of developing a Handicap system. I have 2 suggestions on this:-

  1. Your calculated H/Cap should only be the default starting number. You should then modify these handicap figures based on results in H/cap events -- do well and it drops, do poorly and it increases. Some system of tuning is desirable.

  2. The initial H/Cap could be better calculated from Stats or Score History. One way is to look at the Player Stats - average on P3, P4 & P5 holes.Let's say they are 2.9  3.7 and 4.5 respectively. Assume that a standard Par 72 course has 4 x Par 3's, 4 x Par 5's and the rest Par 4's. Based on these Stats - the player would be expected to score (4 x 2.9 + 4 x 4.5 + 10 x 3.7 )  =  66.6      I you assume that the best players are shooting sub-60 scores - then we could assign something like a 56 as a zero H/Cap.  Your 66.6 would therefore repesent a H/Cap of   10.6

  I know that these Stats are "lifetime" and abilities increase - but if the method is the same for everyone - then it is fair.

  Another option is to take the last 10 single play rounds and base the H/Cap on those.

  A third option is to host a H/Capping Event - where your club's Handicaps are set based on the results. This would be a SInge play, 4 x 18 holes over different courses. Players need to participate and finish to get a Club Handicap. I like this option - but then you need to run monthly events to allow players without H/Cap & new members a chance to get a H/Cap.

  All other H/Cap methods than this last one, suffer from the same problem that players may choose to play only Easy or only Difficult events - or a mixture. For this reason - the H/Cap needs to be adjusted from the calulated starting point, based on performance against other H/Caps. Only in this way will the H/Cap numbers eventually align with player's abilities.

  All food for thought - I hope this helps.

  The Hakman

• sticketttight 60 Posts

  Wed, Apr 22 2015 10:57 PM

  what other basis do you have to go off of?

• Premed 776 Posts

  Thu, Apr 23 2015 3:23 PM

  hakman123:

  I do not think you have grasped the differences highlighted by EE.

  No, I grasped it alright. They are all TMs, same ave, different abilities that may be real or manipulated, who knows. But I am dealing with players of all tiers, any of those 3 TMs would destroy a pro or a tour pro.

  1 - doesnt work if a guy only plays occasional hcap, and improves a lot in between events

  2 You also don't factor in the ave jump on tiering up, so last 10 rounds has probs also.

  I know there are far better methods than mine - but for the simplicity of data collection its easy. I'm not going to visit 200 different profiles to gather info, The credits on offer are small so its not worth a major effort

  Ty for the detailed reply

• hakman123 2,119 Posts

  Thu, Apr 23 2015 3:36 PM

  Agreed - any H/Cap system has it's issues.

  Just pointing out some options - and why the "Average" is actually often not a true reflection of ability.

  I personally prefer the idea of a club event to set H/Caps. It will then be based on current ability.

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Thu, Apr 23 2015 4:46 PM

  However primitive a handicap system is, in a small sample of players such as what Premed is addressing, it's really worth the effort. If you have a mix of Masters, Tour Masters and Legends, that handicap gives the lesser player hope. The better players don't consistently shoot low scores and matches can easily come down to 3 or 4 strokes, if not less.

  The idea works with a group of players that aren't into gaming the system. As Premed pointed out, the ones working the system will stick out. I ran several good competitions in my CC using one of those primitive handicap systems a member dreamed up. We all accepted it and played with it for a while.

  What I found is that the better players had to play their butts off to keep their noses above water and there was always a dogfight to the finish. The same guys weren't dominating and a lot of players had a legitimate chance. 

  IMO, if you could factor in those last 10 CC tournament scores to keep the handicap accurate, you could have a lot of fun with it. Lotta work.  :-)

• EasyEdward 13,507 Posts

  Fri, Apr 24 2015 1:56 PM

  As mentioned above: A handicap system based on CC Tourneys is the best system, in my opinion.

  Here is an idea for the OP to consider.

  Develop a spreadsheet to calculate a members handicap. Each member should have their own row (the columns will be for their scores in comparison to your score in that tourney). Program that spreadsheet to be able to calculate the number of CC Tourneys the member has played in AND their score in comparison to yours.

  1)Tell your CC members you are going to implement a handicap system in the CC but not exactly how it will be done other than a generic "if you play enough CC tourneys you will get a handicap.

  2) Set up a schedule for the tourneys in your CC that will be used to develop a HC. DO NOT call them handicap tourneys (to prevent sandbagging in the HC Tourneys).

  3) You play in each and every one of the CC tourneys that will be used to develop a HC.

  4) When each of the HC developing Tourneys is over - rate each member's over/under based on your score. For example:  You score a 30 so a member with a 28 is +2, one with a 29 is +1, a 30 is 0 a 31 is -1, a 32 is -2 etc. Basically what this means is that you will have an HC of 0 and those in the CC that score better than you will have a strokes added to their score and those that score worse will have strokes taken off their score.

  5) Enter those ratings into your spreadsheet by member.

  6) Decide the minimum number of Tourneys you want for a player to have a handicap (at least 5 - 10?).  Once a member has the minimum number publish their HC in your Forum or website. Explain that a "+" rating means strokes are added to their score and a "-" means strokes are subtracted from their score.

  7) Once enough members have a HC run a Tourney where prizes are awarded but advertise only those that had an HC can win.

  8) After the HC Tourney ends recalculate the end results of the tourney by applying each members HC to their score in the Tourney. You can even keep all the extra decimal points to really get some separation between final scores.

  A side benefit: After that there will be no problem getting members to participate in more CC Tourneys. :-)

  EE

  As a PS - at some point the first tourneys that are in the spreadsheet will become "stale" as members ability improve or they tier up.  So you will also need to decide when to start dropping the older ones.

   

• Premed 776 Posts

  Fri, Apr 24 2015 5:04 PM

  Tnx EE for your detailed replies. Everything you say makes sense and I accept that you really know your stuff. However I couldnt possibly  spend that amount of time in maintaining a hcap system.

  Under the assumption that no system is perfect I am going to run with my easy to administer imperfect system. However if you would like to leave the Peoples club ( even for a sabbatical) and join Majestic Mountain you could help get your hcap system up and running for us. :) 

  Pre