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High ding rate = cheating?

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 8:22 AM

  Jeff and Lonnie, the points you bring up are valid, but I can offer this much in regard to what you're saying...the player in question is (was) indeed a ding putter, whereas I'm not, I almost always move the marker and miss the ding according to break.

  Add to that, he's about half my age, so his reflexes are much sharper, and he put a lot of time and effort into becoming an outstanding player.

  Finally, take a look at the official message from customer service that's posted elsewhere in this thread...their sole criterion was the ding rate they monitored over a 30 day period as compared to the ding rate in only one twitched round that the player in question played after a two week layoff, and in which he still managed to birdie 8 out of 9 holes.

  We maintain that the criterion used by wgt to justify the ban was flawed to begin with, and that the idea of guilty until proven innocent is flawed on the face of it.

• jeffmatulich 482 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 8:58 AM

  mkg335:

  We maintain that the criterion used by wgt to justify the ban was flawed to begin with, and that the idea of guilty until proven innocent is flawed on the face of it.

   

  Fair enough - though you can't be absolutely sure they did not do a bit more analysis on his game play and activity over a longer period, then based on multiple factors they decided to use this 30 day window and monitored twitch game as an acid test and ultimately their justification.  Truth is we don't know....Id like to think they did their due diligence and looked a bit harder at his overall activity within the game but legally they don't have to tell us about any of that and the acid test was justification enough to cover them under their T/Cs.

  Again 80% ding rate is a tough one to believe. Numbers don't lie and they have all the stats (ones we don't even know about that help them code) of every shot hit in this game. Moreover they wrote the code.....they KNOW what range the averages are supposed to be in.  Right?

• PTrenter 437 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:00 AM

  jeffmatulich:

  Just and idea as an experiment here - For those of you who think you're a top player (or a ding king) and feel a 79% ding rate is achievable (and are ding players by trade) - just count your dings over the next 20 rounds, add up your scores, do the math an report back.  It would be interesting to map out and track in this thread.

  Funnily enough I did just that earlier today.  Now I'm not what I'd consider a top player but I would say I'm better than the average.  I've played 27 holes hit 96 shots and went for the ding on 89 of those(7 putts misdinged intentionally).  I dinged 33 of those shots so that's 37%.  I think if others did the same their ding % would be lower than they expected.

  Admittedly it was a bit of an off day but still on a good day I think it would be no more than 50%.  Of course slower metered clubs and balls would increase that but WGT can see what equipment you are using(unless you change it everytime between rounds) and should take that into consideration.   

  Dinging 8 out 10 is a hell of a lot.  I do think there are a few gifted players that can legally hit that when on top form though over a round.  If setting cheat/no cheat on ding % then it has to be over a period of rounds rather than just 1 round.

  If any auto ding programs were being used then WGT should filter shots and take out the drive(unless par 3) and putts as it's the inbetween shots that they would be used on.

• mbcarp99 1,078 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:13 AM

  PTrenter:

  Dinging 8 out 10 is a hell of a lot.

  Agreed, i have counted my dings over the last 5 rounds, around 40% was my average, lots of very close to ding but only 40% dings, i am not saying that that is typical here, nor am i a top player but 79% over a month period is some going. 

• Robert1893 7,722 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:15 AM

  jeffmatulich:

  Just and idea as an experiment here - For those of you who think you're a top player (or a ding king) and feel a 79% ding rate is achievable (and are ding players by trade) - just count your dings over the next 20 rounds, add up your scores, do the math an report back.  It would be interesting to map out and track in this thread.

  I just have a sense that an 80% ding rate is very very uncommon and could see how that might trip the alarm bells at wgt.  And Im not convinced this is the only criteria they are evaluating. Im sure there are considering other factors in their forensic analysis of ones activity and game play on the site.

  
  
  I tend to agree. Additionally, with a month's worth of data, they would be able to calculate measures of central tendency and dispersion. Once having that, taking a sample of N = 1 is not all that problematic. One could easily see how many standard deviations it was from the larger sample. I suspect it's not a few because the mean of 79 is not going to allow for a tremendous amount of variance. Or at least not enough that easily accounts for a 40. The reason is that you have a hard ceiling of 100, and 79 is relatively close to that ceiling. (By the way, the actual score is irrelevant. It's the ding rate that was the focus, if I understand the issue correctly.)

  Moreover, I tend to believe that people overestimate the number of times they're able to ding the shot. The reason is that people remember items that fit the pattern they're looking for and have a tendency to neglect those that don't fit. Simple confirmation bias. Add to that is the reality that I don't think people can remember a month's worth of data in their heads.
  
  It would be interesting if WGT would release the ding rates of players over the course of a month. I think people might be surprised how low the percent is. I'm guessing mine is about 10%. And, as an aside, with all the problems that people have with the meter, I would think people would be surprised with a ding rate of 79% over the course of a month.  
  
  Regardless, even though I've pretty much had stayed out of the substantive discussion in this thread, I thought I would add my 2 cents on all of this. Feel free to ignore!  

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:34 AM

  You have to take into account he was using top level clubs and top level balls, and was a ding putter.  Ding 7 drives, 9 putts, and 4 or 5 approaches, and it's not all that unreasonable.

  Can I do that?  No, but I'm old and am not a ding putter.

  I do appreciate all the well-considered and thoughtful input...the discussion is worth having.  I only wish we'd hear something from wgt to clarify and justify their actions.

• MrFunnyWobbl 894 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:36 AM

  Rather pathetic that they would go in with such a guilty until proven innocent attitude and ban him like such. 

  I'm not spending another dime on this game unless he is reinstated. I probably would have dropped another $500 in the next year, on top of the ~$500 I've already spent since last August. 

  I'll keep playing the game, but I'm finished giving my money to these crooks. Also finished recommending it to others. 

  Maybe time to quit all together? 

• bubbsboy 6,879 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:42 AM

  If they can tell over a month then can they tell over each individual comp that he entered.

  If say auto was used, then not all month as ding was not 100%  over the month so was it 100% in credit tournies and 60% in non.. credit ones.

  Just wondering if WGT can break ding hits down.

  Again without proof I find it hard that they can do this

   

   

• coors71 656 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:47 AM

  Ok people, there is a piece of information missing from this whole equation. I held back to see if anyone other than myself would offer it up, and the answer is no. So I am now going to give it and see if it changes anything. 

  The person in which we are talking about is an insomniac. I know this because I am also. Difference is, I do not play (can't is more truthful,pinched nerves and other issues with my back)  this game for 6-8 hours 7 days a week. Said person plays from 8:30 PM CST to 2:30 AM CST, and sometimes longer. That is nightly people. Now if any of you can play, and I did when I first found this game by accident, that long, maybe just maybe you too can achieve those stats. 

  I felt this was a needed piece of information given the somewhat math equations discussed in the last few post. So here is the latest variable to add to those who are doing it. So now we are talking more games now. I play every morning for less than 2 hours, the length I can sit in an office chair. I can come back after a break and do it again, and there are times I do just that. It seems lately I can not get a game, stroke is what I prefer, hardly except with a few people. I am NOT that good really. It says I have been here since 2011, but I took a year off and came back, so really only 4 years not 5. 

  Before my injury, I could play this game for hours on hours, fell asleep on the keyboard more than once. Now the person in question, again is an insomniac and if you do not know the word, look it up.

  So that is (A) many games per night x  (7) daily  = 79% .

   

  G X H X D = 79%

   

  Or how ever it would be written out, not a math genius. Maybe that would explain how he achieved that percentage then? If I am wrong, please explain where I went wrong there.  Ok that is enough for ya'll to mull over for now I guess.

  Coors71

• mbcarp99 1,078 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:51 AM

  mkg335:

  You have to take into account he was using top level clubs and top level balls, and was a ding putter.  Ding 7 drives, 9 putts, and 4 or 5 approaches, and it's not all that unreasonable.

  Can I do that?  No, but I'm old and am not a ding putter.

  I do appreciate all the well-considered and thoughtful input...the discussion is worth having.  I only wish we'd hear something from wgt to clarify and justify their actions.

  My 40% was only based on drives and approaches as i am mostly an off ding putter but i do agree that how you describe it is feasible and after all dinging is what WGT direct you to do, nevertheless averaging 79% over a month imo would be exceptional but maybe he was just that