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High ding rate = cheating?

Sat, Dec 31 2016 5:26 PM (437 replies)
  • mkg335
    5,491 Posts
    Sat, Jul 23 2016 6:07 PM

    Frank, thanks very much.  That blue 335 of yours is a beauty!

    Mark G

  • vadernader
    62 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 9:16 AM

    mkg335:

    So that's Q's (Tom's) perspective...I believe him and believe he got a raw deal.  Make of it what you will, doesn't sound like a cheater to me.  

    Of course he does not sound like a cheater to you because you were/are friends with him! Why would he ever reply back and say "yup I cheated they caught me it's all over"? He still thinks there's a chance he can get unbanned if he pleads innocence there's no way he would ever admit it now even if he was cheating. Maybe a year or two from now he may finally admit it if he figures out he's not getting unbanned ever or he may take it to the grave and we will never know for certain. There's no reason for anyone who is banned to admit guilt and every reason for them to plead their "innocence". 79% over a large sample size speaks for itself, but I'm sure it's just WGT making up fake statistics to screw 1 player over right? lol.

    (No really, think about it...what is WGT's incentive to make up stuff to get 1 person banned? What does WGT gain? Nothing. What does WGT lose? A long time customer and some respect from his friends. So take your tinfoil hats off, they're not out to get anyone.)

  • mkg335
    5,491 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 9:19 AM

    MYTHofPANDORA:

    mkg335:
     They claimed to have ding rate figures, and I believe them

      Hi, if you believe them this case is closed, and Tom did used a auto-ding!!  Why? Did you really know what is 79% of ding in a period of 30 days?  In this thread a lot of peoples went to see youtube videos of other players or they counted their own shots and get the percent... All good with that!!!!  BUT you need to look with more details, what is a 79% of ding if it comes from a player like Tom!  About a year ago I played with him every night...hundreds of rounds...what I mean is that he played a lot and for many hours!  I'll give you an example of how much he played, the last day he played before he was banned (21.June) and this is only the ranked games...no blitz, no alt, no skins, no MP, no practice... JUST ranked rounds!!!  7rounds of 9holes and 3 rounds of 18holes his totals scores in this games was 374.  To reach a total of 79% he need to hit the ding 295.46 times!!!  Did any of you really think that a person can do that?  Maybe in 1 good round,    but in a 30 days trial??? I showed you only 1 day and only ranked rounds. Then add to it  29 days and all other ways of playing the game ( MPC, skins, Alt, ect)  If you do the Math with  the base of 374 shots in one day X 30 days you will have over 11,220 shots. Guys, the 79% of 11,220 shots is a lot!!!! 

       Do not get me wrong, i am not say that anyone is guilty or WGT was unfair in they decision!!!   I just say that,  IF you Guys consider 79% ding as true, there is no way to achieve that without help from another source!

     

       Liz

    Liz, for some reason your post above showed up later than others on the same page, so I just now saw it.

    What I meant by the above quote is that I believe wgt have ding rate figures, no reason to doubt that.  What I should have added to clarify is that I don't have any way to know how accurate those figures are or how they were compiled, what strokes were counted, whether or not some strokes were left out, etc.

    That's my fault for not being more clear in what I was saying.  In other words, I believe wgt were being truthful about having figures but I don't necessarily trust the accuracy of the figures themselves.

     

  • mkg335
    5,491 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 9:37 AM

    vadernader:

    mkg335:

    So that's Q's (Tom's) perspective...I believe him and believe he got a raw deal.  Make of it what you will, doesn't sound like a cheater to me.  

    Of course he does not sound like a cheater to you because you were/are friends with him! Why would he ever reply back and say "yup I cheated they caught me it's all over"? He still thinks there's a chance he can get unbanned if he pleads innocence there's no way he would ever admit it now even if he was cheating. Maybe a year or two from now he may finally admit it if he figures out he's not getting unbanned ever or he may take it to the grave and we will never know for certain. There's no reason for anyone who is banned to admit guilt and every reason for them to plead their "innocence". 79% over a large sample size speaks for itself, but I'm sure it's just WGT making up fake statistics to screw 1 player over right? lol.

    (No really, think about it...what is WGT's incentive to make up stuff to get 1 person banned? What does WGT gain? Nothing. What does WGT lose? A long time customer and some respect from his friends. So take your tinfoil hats off, they're not out to get anyone.)

    For one thing, wgt's incentive is to placate those who have been demanding for a long time that they rid the game of cheaters...nothing wrong with that, and as many have already said, it's a good thing to do.

    Don't know if you've bothered to read the rest of the thread (which is turning into an encyclopedia, admittedly) but some sound arguments are being made that the process used to determine the ban and the subsequent "trial" of one 9 hole round may be flawed and unfair.

    I don't see any tinfoil hats here at all.  Am I biased in favor of my friend and clubmate?  Yes, and I know he'd be here defending me if the roles were reversed.

    I don't believe there's a conspiracy afoot, just a rush to judgment based on faulty premises and methods, resulting in a mistake by wgt.  Is it unreasonable to consider the possibility that they're mistaken and that an innocent man has paid the price for their mistake?

     

  • MainzMan
    9,591 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 9:57 AM

    mkg335:

    Is it unreasonable to consider the possibility that they're mistaken and that an innocent man has paid the price for their mistake?

    In my opinion, absolutely not Mark.  This trial by 9 hole streamed game seems to be justice in the very loosest interpretation of the word.

    There's obviously some speculation that other factors came into play but the official WGT version of events is very suspicious to say the least.

  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 11:34 AM

    mkg335:
     What I should have added to clarify is that I don't have any way to know how accurate those figures are or how they were compiled, what strokes were counted, whether or not some strokes were left out, etc.

    Does this mean you didn't see the -8 that was scored "under awful conditions", did anyone?

  • AgentBrown123
    907 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 12:17 PM

    mkg335:

    Is it unreasonable to consider the possibility that they're mistaken and that an innocent man has paid the price for their mistake?

    It isn't unreasonable by any means. But going by what they've done in past, they have never ever given out a permanent ban that I have seen from an auto ding or cheat suspect before, at least not a top player. They've closed accounts for multi-accounters before for sure. I have seen some people do some pretty crap things for their bans to be just temporary.

    If there is a chance he wasn't cheating, I think wgt will hear your points. But there must be something else to it. I think if they find something wrong with their reason for the ban they will change their decision. This thread certainly has all the points possible to support the condemned.

    MainzMan:

    In my opinion, absolutely not Mark.  This trial by 9 hole streamed game seems to be justice in the very loosest interpretation of the word.

    There's obviously some speculation that other factors came into play but the official WGT version of events is very suspicious to say the least.

    Why on earth would they ever even in a private message explain why they decided to ban someone permanently? As has been said a million times now. I find it hard to fathom. They made a huge mistake if they did by not only saying it but for allowing that message to be published to a public forum.

    All they should have said is that we have beyond a reasonable amount of evidence to believe he was manipulating game. I think some random incompetent employee went way out of bounds with that response and didn't have all the info to be completely frank.

    WGT has by no means come out with anything official on this and they shouldn't ever imo. All that we're arguing his innocents on is this random email by who knows who wrote it from the wgt staff.

     

     

  • garyk49
    2,330 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 5:07 PM

     

    mkg335:

    For one thing, wgt's incentive is to placate those who have been demanding for a long time that they rid the game of cheaters...nothing wrong with that, and as many have already said, it's a good thing to do.

    Mark.  1 person, or the other 2 that I am aware of also, is not going to placate anything.  So this dog won't hunt.  Now if there were 100's or 1000's that were known about, that would be a different story.  But, yes, it is showing that they are doing something.

    I tend to agree with the many, your loyalty is noble, but I don't think WGT is telling all in the email you have(and has been shown) seen.

  • Woodoworkery
    3,498 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 5:13 PM

    I don't believe it was the ding rate ,if it was there would be some very well known players banned for dinging.

    Also why would they sell the focus boost to help you ding ?

  • Magpiesaregood
    265 Posts
    Sun, Jul 24 2016 5:38 PM

    AgentBrown123:

    mkg335:

    Is it unreasonable to consider the possibility that they're mistaken and that an innocent man has paid the price for their mistake?

    It isn't unreasonable by any means. But going by what they've done in past, they have never ever given out a permanent ban that I have seen from an auto ding or cheat suspect before, at least not a top player. They've closed accounts for multi-accounters before for sure. I have seen some people do some pretty crap things for their bans to be just temporary.

    If there is a chance he wasn't cheating, I think wgt will hear your points. But there must be something else to it. I think if they find something wrong with their reason for the ban they will change their decision. This thread certainly has all the points possible to support the condemned.

    MainzMan:

    In my opinion, absolutely not Mark.  This trial by 9 hole streamed game seems to be justice in the very loosest interpretation of the word.

    There's obviously some speculation that other factors came into play but the official WGT version of events is very suspicious to say the least.

    Why on earth would they ever even in a private message explain why they decided to ban someone permanently? As has been said a million times now. I find it hard to fathom. They made a huge mistake if they did by not only saying it but for allowing that message to be published to a public forum.

    All they should have said is that we have beyond a reasonable amount of evidence to believe he was manipulating game. I think some random incompetent employee went way out of bounds with that response and didn't have all the info to be completely frank.

    WGT has by no means come out with anything official on this and they shouldn't ever imo. All that we're arguing his innocents on is this random email by who knows who wrote it from the wgt staff.

     

     

    Hi AB

    Why shouldn't they explain (be it in a private message) why they ban a player? The way I see it, there is really only a few ways you can cheat, auto ding, CE or editing the code of the game. Obviously there are other ways of "cheating" e.g., multi accounts or selling credits on the "black market". To me anyway, those last two are slightly different. With regards to multi accounts, surely WGT can monitor the IP address, and therefor is easily explained. With regards to selling credits on the "black market" (assuming the player obtained the credits legitimately in the first place), this is "cheating" WGT out of their profits and harder to find who is actually doing this. 

    But if they do have systems in place to "actually" monitor auto dinger's, CE or code editing, then why not say "you have been banned because we detected an auto dinger (called "abc") or CE or a code editing pack? I think this gives more credibility to WGT and more of a deterrent to players who think they can use these means and get away with it. I am not suggesting they provide details on how they determine this or what they use to detect these, but I do suggest they provide proof if they make the accusation (and ultimately the decision).

    But to basis the assumption on %, which WGT will need to determine what is acceptable or not, is still an assumption (albeit a good assumption but still an assumption). In my opinion, that's what these new "security sweeps" were, a compilation of data giving the ability to determines one's %.

    From all the time I have been on this site and reading the forums, I do not recall any discussions on ding %. All of a sudden, and we can only go on what we know WGT advised, that the ding % is (or a large part) in determining if one is cheating. I agree with you "some random incompetent employee went way out of bounds with that response and didn't have all the info to be completely frank", but the simply fact that was in the forefront of their thinking (and no one else's here or in the past prior to this situation) is proof enough that that is part of their decision making.

    Now please do not get me wrong, I applaud WGT in trying to eliminate cheats, we all do. But I do believe that they need to be reliable in their detection and able to provide proof without question (not giving details in how or what they use). If that where the case then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

     

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