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High ding rate = cheating?

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 8:43 AM

  I (and others) have been in contact with the player in question...thought I'd share the latest one I've received.  I had emailed him and point-blanked him.  I said for my own peace of mind I needed to be 100% sure he was on the up-and-up, that in no way had he ever cheated and that he had never used an auto-dinger.  

  We've all been tossing numbers around, some more legit than others, but basically we're all guessing and speculating.  I wanted to post his reply to my email just to provide a more human side to what's going on:

  "Hi Mark have been keeping up on the thread and in contact with Jim and Roy.   I understand you asking and no worries I was not using any type of Auto Dinger.  If being honest I don't believe the 79% WGT stated.  I know I hit the ding a lot but 79% just don't trust that figure.  Like I told Jim WGT hung their hat on Auto Dinger.  Well they had their trial sat me 2 weeks, bad stream, bad meter, showed task manager (no auto dinger) and they were counting dings FFS.  They knew there was no way I would come close to that 79% they claim.  I tell you this Mark if I knew they were gonna be counting dings I would not have hit 1 fcking ding and still shot -8 :)  

  I played to miss the ding for about 3 years and can easliy do it now.  I could have stayed a miss ding player and my scores would have been the same basically.  I made a choice to try and see if I could get good at hitting the ding.  Hell WGT gives you balls, clubs and even focus boost to slow the meter so you can hit the ding easier.  Well I did and it got me banned ffs.  

  Thanks for your support in the forums Mark I appreciate it.  Not really a lot more we can do hell been about a week and they still have not replied to me LOL."

  So that's Q's (Tom's) perspective...I believe him and believe he got a raw deal.  Make of it what you will, doesn't sound like a cheater to me.  
  

       

• Robert1893 7,722 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 8:55 AM

  mkg335:

  So that's Q's (Tom's) perspective...I believe him and believe he got a raw deal.  Make of it what you will, doesn't sound like a cheater to me.  

  At the risk of too finely parsing out words, he never addressed the question of whether or not he cheated in any other way. He only addressed the question of whether he was using an auto-dinger. 
  
  I understand that's the focus and the reason for why he was banned. But it still leaves unanswered if he cheated in any other way.  

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 9:04 AM

  Robert, what other ways are available?  I've heard of packet editors, but using something like that is way beyond my (and Tom's) IT knowledge.  And if not that, what other way could he have been cheating?  For wgt the criterion was ding rate, nothing more.  Seriously, what else is available to slow the meter besides an auto-dinger and the methods legally supplied by wgt?

  btw I noticed a couple of posts from Dickster789 have crawled into the thread.  Somebody tell him to go back to the shallow end and play, the adults are having a conversation.

• MBaggese 15,367 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 10:07 AM

  jeffmatulich:

  Edit - and Bag.... Score was NOT the issue here......has no bearing on the discussion in terms of ding% and why he was asked to perform this exercise.  Yawn... I mean like who cares what he shot - its irrelevant.....how many times did he hit the ding? that what was under investigation and under the microscope.

   

   

  ffs- really?

   

    See, now if you had read the entire thread, you would have known that the Ding % numbers were given AFTER he played the round.

   

  He had no idea going into the round that he was going to be held to a 80% ding rate.

   

  As I mentioned 20 or so pages ago, if he KNEW he was going to be held to a 80% ding rate, and playing with a choppy meter, etc, don't you think he would have said "hey, let me get this smoothed out"?

   

    But he wasn't worried about dinging the shots, just scoring well-which he did.

• Robert1893 7,722 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 11:25 AM

  mkg335:

  Robert, what other ways are available?  I've heard of packet editors, but using something like that is way beyond my (and Tom's) IT knowledge.

  
  
  I'll admit that I don't know. But I've learned never to underestimate people's abilities to game a system. And I still can't get past that high ding rate average over such a long period of time. It would be really good to know how many rounds were played during that time and what measures of centrality and dispersion were. 
  
  At this point, however, there seems to be enough uncertainty that I now support letting him play again, with the understanding that he's on some type of probation.  

• MYTHofPANDORA 53 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 11:52 AM

  mkg335:

   They claimed to have ding rate figures, and I believe them

    Hi, if you believe them this case is closed, and Tom did used a auto-ding!!  Why? Did you really know what is 79% of ding in a period of 30 days?  In this thread a lot of peoples went to see youtube videos of other players or they counted their own shots and get the percent... All good with that!!!!  BUT you need to look with more details, what is a 79% of ding if it comes from a player like Tom!  About a year ago I played with him every night...hundreds of rounds...what I mean is that he played a lot and for many hours!  I'll give you an example of how much he played, the last day he played before he was banned (21.June) and this is only the ranked games...no blitz, no alt, no skins, no MP, no practice... JUST ranked rounds!!!  7rounds of 9holes and 3 rounds of 18holes his totals scores in this games was 374.  To reach a total of 79% he need to hit the ding 295.46 times!!!  Did any of you really think that a person can do that?  Maybe in 1 good round,    but in a 30 days trial??? I showed you only 1 day and only ranked rounds. Then add to it  29 days and all other ways of playing the game ( MPC, skins, Alt, ect)  If you do the Math with  the base of 374 shots in one day X 30 days you will have over 11,220 shots. Guys, the 79% of 11,220 shots is a lot!!!! 

     Do not get me wrong, i am not say that anyone is guilty or WGT was unfair in they decision!!!   I just say that,  IF you Guys consider 79% ding as true, there is no way to achieve that without help from another source!

   

     Liz

• AgentBrown123 907 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 11:55 AM

  Just to preface, sorry for the long post, but I hope it's worth the read. This is a reference for others whom are interested in ding%. This is a round from today.

  I try to ding around 95 percent of all my approach shots. I probably try to ding my drives 60% of time and tee shots into greens 95%, so roughly 77% out of all tee shots I go for ding. Probably decreasing my actual ding rate around 5% than it would be if I went for them on drives all the time.

  400c RG at Pinehurst

  Tee Shots: 9/18 = 50%* +5% if counting missing on purpose

  Approach Shots: 8/14 = 57%

  Putting: 11/18 = 61%

  Putt avg. per hole 1.22

  Ding excluding putts: 53.5% avg.

  Adding 5% more for drives: 56% avg

  Including putts and 5% for drives: 57.7%

  Round went 30-28-58

  I would say this rate is probably just slightly below average for me. Was a below average putting performance for me and slightly below average round. I imagine I can probably hit up to 80-90% on my very very best rounds but that would be rare. Probably averaging overall somewhere around 58%-62%.

  Putting is kinda irrelevant, if the putt is really short or really straight, I go for ding, if it's a breaker, I try to miss. If I'm hitting approaches really close that round I would have a much higher ding rate on putts. 

  I'm wondering if they counted dings on his putter. If he is a ding putter I can see someone possibly averaging close to 80%. But lets say he's sticking his shot 3 feet away. Those to me would be straight in ding putts which would really inflate my %. I wouldn't say I'm the best at timing the ding but certainly not the worst. 

  Just purely basing this on the message from mkg. He doesn't really seem like a dude that would use a cheat. It seems to me now somewhat plausible he wasn't using an auto dinger.

  But again, I would find it really highly unlikely they gave all the meat and potatoes behind why they decided on the perm ban. This would lead to people getting around the system they have in place.

  I tend to agree that he should get another shot to prove himself at least. Perhaps puting him on another 30 day watch.

  I am done saying ding for awhile....ffs!! lol

  I'm dung out....

  AB

   

   

   

   

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 12:24 PM

  mkg335:

  We've all been tossing numbers around, some more legit than others, but basically we're all guessing and speculating.

  I'd suggest the least reliable numbers are the anecdotal ones, the most reliable where people counted. Although we don't really know what numbers are "legit" until we know what shots are counted when wgt say "around 40%" and "79%".  I wont suggest again how you can find out, maybe nobody watched this "trial" round.

  I may be wrong but I detect a change in emphasis anyway, no longer suggesting an average of 79% is attainable without cheating but denying he had that average.

  This leaves us with wgt made up both the "around 40%" and "79%" , basically he's lying or they are.  That seems to me to leave them no choice but to keep him banned.

  mkg335:

  I believe him and believe he got a raw deal.

  I completely believe you do, and I think you're a fair and intelligent person.  That and the belief of others who know him are for me the best points of his "defence".  I also reckon what you have on your status is pretty accurate.

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 3:28 PM

  Robert1893:

  mkg335:

  Robert, what other ways are available?  I've heard of packet editors, but using something like that is way beyond my (and Tom's) IT knowledge.

  
  
  I'll admit that I don't know. But I've learned never to underestimate people's abilities to game a system. And I still can't get past that high ding rate average over such a long period of time. It would be really good to know how many rounds were played during that time and what measures of centrality and dispersion were. 
  
  At this point, however, there seems to be enough uncertainty that I now support letting him play again, with the understanding that he's on some type of probation.  

  Again I don't KNOW to a proper standard of proof, not that WGT seem as concerned with that burden, but I can't see that packets would be involved here.  Packets let 7 irons land on the green in a 20MPH HW off full tees, and then take the tap in putt.  Trifling with small fry dings and packets don't sound it....

  Back to the 40% and 79%...Lots of discussion and it all still looks unsafe whichever way it is cut as a means to hang.  The "trial" certainly was as useful as a phart in a bath evidence wise - Apart from scoring -8 thru 9 and "guilty".

• mystry78 880 Posts

  Sat, Jul 23 2016 5:52 PM

  Did somebody say 335? My profile pick is my Beale St. blue 335.

  Nice LP MKG.

                          Frank