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Pre Determined Winners

• zagraniczniak 1,984 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 5:21 AM

  SGTBilko:

  You know, I understand how you feel! I know that WGT lets Bigfoot, Nessie and those ET friends of Yancy win every game we play.

  Well, Yancy may be a great competitor, but to walk in his shoes ... suffice it to say there are some pretty irascible and downright implacable aliens out there that have drawn a bead on his hiney. Never can tell when them suckers are going to swoop down and claim what - in their alien logic - they think is theirs. Buttocks shields in place and whatever, that's still a mighty uncomfortable cloud to exist under and whatnot.

• VanHalenLover 1,422 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 5:34 AM

  WGTicon:

  First of all, I did not say that and you can see what I said by reading a post above.

  That is why I said it was MY opinion. I wasn't trying to pass it off as your quote. It was quoted from your post, and it copied down that way. I've edited the original reply to show it as my quote.

  WGTicon:

  This is not an opinion, it is a fact.  There is absolutely no point for any company to fix results. We do not care (to be blunt) who wins and who loses. The important part is to have as fair competition as possible. Now, there are many ways in which you may disagree what is fair but it doesn't make it unfair.

  If you re-read my post, I agreed that the outcome was not pre-determined. I further explained that the algorithm changes the difficulty/deviation at unknown intervals based on tier, level, average, etc. This is EXACTLY the role that wgt's programming plays in determining the type of round one will have. If this is incorrect, please fill me in. This came from mods previous to you, so if that has changed I apologize, but it certainly wasn't presented as a lie. 

  WGTicon:

  As you can tell, this is not a topic where opinion has a place. One is right and everything else is not.

  A little narrow minded, but I can see this is another of those topics that are not for discussion. Might have been better to state it that way. Funny thing, two replies and I still don't even know which part of my post you think was a lie. Talk about pre-determined.

   

   

• sallu4u 87 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 7:27 AM

  VanHalenLover:

  I don't think the winner is pre-determined 18, but the game is programmed to make your game harder or easier based on a complex algorithm that looks at your tier, level, average, etc etc etc. Catch it during a perios where the difficulty is turned up, and most likely your gonna lose. Catch it when the difficulty is turned down, and you feel like you can bet anyone.

  Not a pre-determined winner, but they play a part in taking the end result out of the players hands.

  Totally agreed with this observation.

  Experienced this a lot in multiplayer games like alternate shot and stroke plays where most of the time,there is always one player who has the going easy while others struggle to catch up.

   

• zagraniczniak 1,984 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 8:47 AM

  To be fair to all, it seems to me that if anyone is spreading the idea that WGT itself plays favorites among members to let certain individual players win, that should properly be deemed a falsehood (or lie if used to smear WGT).

  I don't think that's what Van was talking about, however - but rather the VEM system that (according to the patent claims) is designed to automatically make the game harder as the player improves. In other words, the game engine effectively making it easier for one player to win and harder for another.

  That said, it is unclear whether the VEM is even in use - unless it refers at this point simply to the tier system as such. The patent claims suggest that the playing characteristics of the equipment will change as the player improves, but Icon has previously said that this is not the case.

• 0TarHeel0 43 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 9:00 AM

  I'm not trying to be a WGT homer or anything, and I've only taken the very basic programming courses for hobby(so if someone who knows more reads this please correct me), but one of the most important parts of any computer program is input. Also, when you code a program it can only do what you program it to do. That being said, WGT can't take your shot for you and they sure as hell can't pick your club, spin, or kind of shot. There are several variables that go into every shot. It wouldn't make sense to "make it harder" sometimes and "easier" the next time. WGT has only laid down the groundwork, it takes input from the user to get the end result. Obviously, I don't know how it was programmed, because I don't work for WGT, but from the programs I have coded and designed, without proper input, you're not going to get the end result you are looking for. AND most importantly, if you take this game so seriously where you think everything is rigged against you, take a step back. It's only a game after all. You can't take your credits home with you. 

• LizzieRossetti 1,545 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 10:29 AM

  DylynJ:

  Every thing in life is pre-determined. People walk about the globe believing that they have a choice in anything. All of our futures.. our wills... our aspirations are most definitely pre-determined by several levels of indoctrination. This game you speak of.. though.. seems to have been of free will (which means you are gifted).

  Most people live their entire lives following others because it's the "right thing to do:. They don't know or care why it's the right thing to do. They just follow. Good for you! You're a hopeful one! One of a few! Politics, Society, Semantics..  it all breeds followers and .. yes  "sycophants". The most valuable and the most dangerous people in this world are those who think independent of it.

   Sorry to rant off topic i just HAD to vent. Sorry. GG for you 18orbust.

   

   

  Dylan,there is a non exclusive club available for the truly independant of spirit,the meetings,usually in Florida are always packed.

  It's called "I FOLLOW NO ONE"

  Motto: Moderation in Moderation

   

  Lizzie xx.And I dont care if Im off topic not the leastest bit because I now am fed up with the puritans who diss the humour and downright humanity they are supressing. No xx for you and you know who you are.

  As to the OP. Its my guess you're having a baggie diggie day when things don't go your way and the most important element of the whole process is YOU,the person asking the fangled machine to do your bidding.

• WGTicon 12,511 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 10:30 AM

  VEM as far as I know (and I know no new info since my playing days) is not designed against an individual player but rather a system that maybe used (i can maybe that I simply do not know if it's used per patent standards) as a randomizing factor, where as if you hit 115 club with no spin in 0 wind will not fly 115 on the dot but 113 to 117 yards. (so called circle of precision) Obviously, that is done to mimic real life conditions, where no club will ever fly identical distances (air temperature, player hit power, elevation, etc).

  Now, this thread has 2 misconceptions, and I take it seriously because when new players read it, they need not have doubts about this.

  1. We do not predetermine results for anyone, That is simply never been true or will be true.

  2. VEM is not tailored to individual players but simply a system to mimic real-life conditions. I do not remember any other person say otherwise, if not, please correct me

  Now, I realize people may not agree with me or have a different view. That's fine, discuss it away. Just know, there are things you can discuss or make assumptions or on have an opinion how to do better, and there are things that whatever you discuss will simple not be true from the facts.

  -wgticon 

• zagraniczniak 1,984 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 10:48 AM

  Cool. As far as VEM is concerned, I would not pry into WGT's trade secrets (indeed, whether they actually use VEM or not at this point), but I was just referring to the information in the patent filing, which is public information.

• StrangeMagic 1,304 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 2:19 PM

  zagraniczniak:

  Cool. As far as VEM is concerned,

  

• VanHalenLover 1,422 Posts

  Fri, Apr 8 2011 2:43 PM

  Thanks for the constructive response Niv, much appreciated.

  WGTicon:

  1. We do not predetermine results for anyone, That is simply never been true or will be true.

  Agreed, and I haven't heard anyone make that claim - only the OP asking the question

  WGTicon:

  2. VEM is not tailored to individual players but simply a system to mimic real-life conditions. I do not remember any other person say otherwise, if not, please correct me

  Agreed also - but in application the VEM model at least appears to give you some rounds where nothing can go wrong, and some where nothing can go right. I'm not saying it is geared towards an individual player per-see, but when that 'can't hit anything' rounds occurs; it is happening to an individual player. And yes, it happens to all of us. But as I said, that is where my perception comes from, and my comments earlier about when you have an 'off' round, you just know there is nothing you can do.

  No one has said that WGT targets any specific player, you'd have to have a tinfoil hat on to think something like that. The fact that VEM builds in these deviations, and the fact that they are dynamic and affect people at different times lends itself to supporting these observations. Not too difficult to see that one player can be on the 'easy' end of VEM and be playing against another on the 'Hard' end of VEM. The assumption on the outcome of the match based on that doesn't seem too far off then, now does it?