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Massive difference in shot distances

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Tue, Jan 29 2019 12:23 PM

  #dodgyputter... Alan... we can go back over it... if you like... but, WGTChampion stated quite clearly "VEM is an every day feature of WGT."  How you interpret it, is up to you.  But there is or at least appears to be an additional "player profile quotient" (this is how I think of it) that is included in the algorithms, which we as players have no way of knowing specifically what or how it is implemented,  that allows the output of shots to vary based on that additional "factor" being used.  Maybe it is a factor ranging from 0-1 and depending on where it is in that range you notice the small variations in your scoring but you will most certainly notice when it is at either extreme --- but it is not and never is below 0 or in that way "hurting" you  beyond what is just the greatest variance of your clubs...

  As such, It seemingly helps you at times shoot better scores than normal... but if it isn't at the proper thresh hold to be helping you, then it is likely seemingly not helping you and may seem to work against you because the variance of your shots are at a greater degree of margin of error.  

  So, yes, two players, with two different player profiles, with identical equipment and ball can easily have different shot outputs despite hitting a shot identical to one another because they each play and progress at different levels, not to mention the variance of the clubs themselves.... so while it effects one person today, it may effect the other another day... but it still happens to everyone... it may just vary on the day, time, and/or round that it occurs...

  DodgyPutter:

  Which one of the two shots had the positive vem?

  I would need to review the video of the exact shot, the specific equipment and ball used, and hopefully some familiarity with that equipment, but the more familiar I am with the equipment the more adept I would feel of making a very reasonable prediction or educated guess on which shot was potentially effected positively, normally or even seemingly adversely or with the lowest degree of player profile quotient helping the player.  

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Tue, Jan 29 2019 3:43 PM

   

  el3n1:

  DodgyPutter:

  Which one of the two shots had the positive vem?

  I would need to review the video of the exact shot, the specific equipment and ball used, and hopefully some familiarity with that equipment, but the more familiar I am with the equipment the more adept I would feel of making a very reasonable prediction or educated guess on which shot was potentially effected positively, normally or even seemingly adversely or with the lowest degree of player profile quotient helping the player.  

  The assumption one was affected at all by vem is what mystifies me.

  We know they were on the fairway, the same ball hit with the same club and dinged.

  Unless they were right next to each other then the angle (and therfore wind) was different.  We don't know the distance, if they were full shots (lol, one may have been 95.4% and the other 94.6% power), Persumably, as this was the shot pointed out, all the other shots acted more predictably. Meaning one of the had vem for a single shot?

  Most of all these were dinged shots, that I thought was hitting the sweet spot, so surely the size of it shouldn't matter. Isn't it that the big variation meant to come when it's missed, even just missed?

  The first paragraph is a credible interpretation of what Champ' said, not sure yet if I believe it.

  It was a long time age but MisterWGT said, and his caps.

   Whenever you equip a club, it’s performance/output will NEVER change based on your score, a tournament, who you are playing or, most importantly, your tier.

  Clubs are essentially locked and there is nothing automatically changing/modifying their performance during a single game, series of games, the day, etc.   

  MisterWGT

• DAZZA501 5,972 Posts

  Tue, Jan 29 2019 4:01 PM

  People can test the possibilities themselves. Go and play a practice round and when you have an approach to the green keep using the mulligan and hit the same shot and see the difference in the distances. You'll be very surprised the difference between your shortest and longest shot. I just tried it hitting a 7 iron (10 shots) and there was 8 yards difference from my shortest to longest.

• K7JBQ 1,468 Posts

  Tue, Jan 29 2019 4:17 PM

  The only people who would be remotely surprised by this are those who never played a round of golf, out doors, on real grass.

   

  DAZZA501:

  People can test the possibilities themselves. Go and play a practice round and when you have an approach to the green keep using the mulligan and hit the same shot and see the difference in the distances. You'll be very surprised the difference between your shortest and longest shot. I just tried it hitting a 7 iron (10 shots) and there was 8 yards difference from my shortest to longest.

   

• DonCaron 5,502 Posts

  Tue, Jan 29 2019 5:09 PM

  K7JBQ:

  The only people who would be remotely surprised by this are those who never played a round of golf, out doors, on real grass.

  Exactly

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Tue, Jan 29 2019 5:29 PM

  DAZZA501:

  People can test the possibilities themselves.

  have already done so, at another point in time.. in a different thread but used a different club... I have never in my entire time posting in the forum disputed the existence of variance in a clubs performance... doing so is beyond absurd....  and it doesn't dismiss the use or existence of VEM.  

• JFidanza 1,676 Posts

  Tue, Jan 29 2019 8:13 PM

  DodgyPutter:

  Clubs are essentially locked and there is nothing automatically changing/modifying their performance during a single game, series of games, the day, etc.   

  MisterWGT

  Understandable.

  But the 'skill level' is the one variance. 

  If I give Jack Nicklaus a club, and then I give a 3 year old kid the SAME club, there 'is nothing changing/modifying their (the club) performance' but because of the 'skill level' the result will be, as it should be, completely different.

  hmm ..did WGT respond yet?  /Kappa

   Ever wonder why the people who have been playing the game for years and years get scores that the novices claim to be 'completely impossible' to the point where they suggest that they are cheating?  BINGO

• DAZZA501 5,972 Posts

  Wed, Jan 30 2019 2:02 AM

  K7JBQ:

  The only people who would be remotely surprised by this are those who never played a round of golf, out doors, on real grass.

  Very true. In my real game the difference can 80 yards instead of 8 and i'm a single figure handicapper :-)

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Wed, Jan 30 2019 12:28 PM

  JFidanza:

  But the 'skill level' is the one variance. 

  I realize it may seem like semantics but you have to be careful suggestion "one variance" there are many aspects within the game that possess varying degrees of precision or forgiveness or tolerance of variance... 

  I agreed with your previous post, but I think you have to be careful here … it can open up some misunderstanding if you use the term skill level broadly...

  Skill level can be used to describe different things from an individual player's external ability outside of the game that is then applied to how they play  (which I understood your recent post to imply) and potentially the "skill level" factor assigned within the game that may fluctuate over the course of play which is what I understood WGTChampion to be describing (and likely your previous post to refer to).

  This is a subtle distinction but important to make because WGT has no control over one (player external skill level) and the other they do (PPQ) but the wording can seemingly be applied to both... unless you make the distinction.... For that reason, I have labeled what WGT does have control over as potentially a "player profile quotient/factor" or PPQ that is fluid and fluctuates with your progress in the game. 

  I also believe, WGTChampion acknowledged a players external skill level that still allows and enables the best players to rise to the top... but these are slightly different references in different paragraphs of his post.  

  Not saying you are wrong in your assessment on external skill level or the role of it PPQ  within the game.  The latter requires a different label or term to avoid confusion when trying to discuss it.  I find it necessary to make some small distinctions otherwise people will be arguing about one thing while assigning them two different meanings or thinking about it in two different ways... obviously it can lead to confusion...

• Mythanatos 2,216 Posts

  Tue, Feb 12 2019 7:21 AM

  throwing in 2 cents albeit a little late.

   

  You need to understand that there are no exact values. there is a range.

  that range can be large or small and can be changed and affected by multiple factors. 

  If you hit the ding then precision is in play and it tightens down the range. how much? ask the programmers.

  if you miss the ding then forgiveness comes into play. the better the forgiveness and closer to the ding the tighter the range.

  probably precision has a bigger effect than forgiveness on tightening the range. but still it is a range that a RNG rolls in. Then you have differences in wind.

  how far was the shot? longer shots are going to have small differences magnified. 

  Wind is a changing variable.  

  those huge elevation drop par 3s on Chambers for example. 2 MPH of wind can be huge on a 200 yard + shot that's in the air a long time.especially if the player's RNGs rolled on the opposite edges of the range.