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Could someone explain this ?

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Mon, Jan 25 2010 4:40 PM

  I can understand your frustrations, as I have shared in them from time to time.  "Mucking up" the waters IMO would be to go through a detailed and purely hypothetical scenario of what could possibly be involved in those complex algorithms, something that I think few would have the stomach for and would probably be wasting a bunch of white space here.

  I'm not speaking for WGT, simply pointing out that if the original VEM document is read carefully in conjunction with the answer given by MisterWGT, it becomes clear that 1. He is doing his best to tell us as much as he rightfully can, and 2. The complexities of the game allow for a wide array of variables to be factored into their current system.  How, when, and where those variables are used and/or manipulated is not really for us to know.  Those are trade secrets, and so long as there is no legal impropriety in their use then they have every right to utilize them at their discretion and keep them to themselves.

  Let me put it this way:  If even 2% of that VEM patent were being used currently, and WGT was asked if the VEM system were being used, then how should they answer?  If they say "Yes, part of it is", then you know the next question will be, "Which part?", to which the reply would have to be, "We aren't at liberty to say".  Then we'd just be back at square one, with people saying they are being elusive when in fact they are asking  questions that they don't really have the right to know the answer to.  We may LIKE to have the answer, but we certainly aren't entitled to it, nor would WGT in any way be disingenuous for not providing it.  KFC doesn't doesn't tell anyone their recipe, why should WGT tell anyone theirs?

  Just something to think about anyway.

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Mon, Jan 25 2010 4:49 PM

  I am not frustrated. I am not looking for trade secrets. I'm looking for respect as a person with a brain and capable of putting 2 and 2 together. I see too many disgruntled new players that are disgruntled because of whatever strategy WGT is employing to keep this from being point and click cartoon golf. Just be up front about it. Declare the alleged deviation as a fact of the game. Forget how it's done, just say it is. I think it would shut a lot of people up, me for one, and keep new members from getting disgruntled so easily.

• jayjonbeach 689 Posts

  Mon, Jan 25 2010 4:58 PM

  Hehe couldnt help to pipe back in now because both Tibbets and YJ have now made good points, which puts me on the fence.

  I think Tibbets has alluded to what my post following MisterWGT basically said, we are left to assume and he has described why, which was my conclusion as well. 

  The old Cadbury secret cliche, but it would be nice to know if at least some of the deviations are on purpose like YJ mentions, without having to know how......

• SLASHX 278 Posts

  Mon, Jan 25 2010 6:17 PM

  I guess my problem with the whole thing is them asking us to report bugs glitches etc. and then getting a response of we're looking into it only to have the same unresolved problem with the game 3 and 4 months later. Maybe the wind glitch in multiplayer is simply by design to ensure this isnt cartoon golf?? Who's to say since we have no clue what the variables are? I dont need their "secret recipe"... what i need is acknowledgement that we aren't just considered a bunch of dumbasses who are being manipulated into playing a game we cant eventually excel at because the pre-programmed system wont allow it.

  The patent that was filed doesnt disclose specific variables although it does list some potential ones and it is freely available on the internet so the whole "secret recipe" argument doesnt hold water. It isn't necessary to be specific in this situation.. in fact they dont have to respond at all... but as a CUSTOMER of WGT i think i have a right to know if i am wasting my time on a game i wont eventually be highly competitive at if i put the effort into it like i should because the pre-programming wont allow it. I dont think that is an unfair question now that this has come to light. Afterall it states in the patent itself that it's designed to keep me playing this game longer than i normally would... which in turn is simply so WGT can make more money off me. Honestly it's a brilliant system if you are WGT and you arent the one being manipulated.

  But tibbets is right... the next question would be "well which part" and apparently thats something they dont want us to know. I guess i personally feel that they are in fact employing a VEM system of some sort as outlined in the patent and for whatever reason arent going to be forthcoming about it and thats that. Deal with it. Not much more to say at that point.

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Mon, Jan 25 2010 6:38 PM

  Ok, let's put it another way.

  If, hypothetically, the game does in some ways get harder the better you get at it, then I am playing the hardest conditions of anyone on here.  It hasn't stopped me from excelling at the game, only from completely dominating at it.  So, I'm not sure why you think you wouldn't be able to excel at the game even if that hypothetical were true.  The way I see it, anyone who isn't me would be playing an easier version of the game.  Consider it some built in handicapping if you will.  Realistically, the algorithm would be based on probabilities of difficulty, not the certainty of such.  Once again, all this is based hypothetically on the idea that there is some sort of VEM modeling at work.

  Yes, the patent is on file and there for public viewing, but we know not what parts of that patent are being/have been implemented.  Those specific details are what comprise the "secret recipe" if you will.  In the corporate world, giving out details like that, even just saying "Yes, there are built in deviations" are a no-no.  There are other games out there who will use every little bit of defined knowledge of this game and try and twist it and market against it.  It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, so keeping the cards close to the chest is the best policy and ultimately necessary.  It  has the unfortunate side effect of keeping us somewhat at arms length...it's the nature of the business.

• Richard4168 4,309 Posts

  Mon, Jan 25 2010 6:39 PM

  I've lost a degree or two of enthusiasm for the game. How am I supposed to play multiple times and have fun with the same results every time?

   

   

• drivnchaos 286 Posts

  Mon, Jan 25 2010 6:56 PM

  SLASHX:

  but as a CUSTOMER of WGT i think i have a right to know if i am wasting my time on a game i wont eventually be highly competitive at if i put the effort into it like i should because the pre-programming wont allow it. I dont think that is an unfair question now that this has come to light. Afterall it states in the patent itself that it's designed to keep me playing this game longer than i normally would... which in turn is simply so WGT can make more money off me. Honestly it's a brilliant system if you are WGT and you arent the one being manipulated.

  When the patent has been in place, since the beginning of the game, and there are people that have been doing well, since the beginning of the game, how can you feel cheated ?  

  You, Slash, have a ranked round number of 247,  while Tibbets has a number of 1,504. You have been a member since July 09, while he has been a member since Jan. 08. With the amount of time Tibbets has put in, he has become quite successful. This is with the same program in place that we all play with.  MrWGT stated himself that all players are created equal in the beginning. What the player does after that is where the change occurs.

  We all play the same game, with the same "deviation" in place. Some see it more because the skill level is higher,  while some,  myself included,  see it less. 

  We ALL  must adapt to the change, because if we didn't have to, wouldn't this just be another video golf game ?  

   

• SLASHX 278 Posts

  Mon, Jan 25 2010 7:27 PM

  drivnchaos:

  When the patent has been in place, since the beginning of the game, and there are people that have been doing well, since the beginning of the game, how can you feel cheated ?  

   

  I was told it wasn't in place by WGT. Are you able to say with certainty it is in place? Do you work for WGT?

  I never said i felt cheated. Am i being cheated?

   

  drivnchaos:

   

  You, Slash, have a ranked round number of 247,  while Tibbets has a number of 1,504. You have been a member since July 09, while he has been a member since Jan. 08. With the amount of time Tibbets has put in, he has become quite successful. This is with the same program in place that we all play with.  MrWGT stated himself that all players are created equal in the beginning. What the player does after that is where the change occurs.

  Hmm i must have missed that part of what he said. I don't recall him saying that my actions caused a change in the system. I am also not sure that the program that "isnt" being used is in fact "not" being used for everyone the same way... since of course i was told it wasnt being used.

  drivnchaos:

   

  We all play the same game, with the same "deviation" in place. Some see it more because the skill level is higher,  while some,  myself included,  see it less. 

  We ALL  must adapt to the change, because if we didn't have to, wouldn't this just be another video golf game ?

  Since i was told there was no deviation in place i assume we all see poor programming and bugs in place rather than deviation that is intentional since WGT has said there isnt any. And as to your last statement this is just another golf game to me... i dont own any stock in WGT and i am not employed by nor do i have any family employed by WGT so aside from this being a buggy mess of a game with less available courses than most and better scenery than most... it really is just another online golf game.

• birdwell 561 Posts

  Tue, Jan 26 2010 12:22 AM

  SLASHX:

  Since i was told there was no deviation in place

   

  That's not how I am interpreting MisterWGT's responses. Actually he did not say anything about deviations.

   

  Here is a paragraph from the Patent that I thought was very illustrative. Hopefully it is permissible to retype this in here.

  "As a user becomes more adept at using a peice of virtual equipment, the sweet spot for one or more of the virtual equipment's variables is adjusted to require the user's interaction with the virtual equipment to achive values for those variables closer to their means in order to cause a successful outcome. Likewise, as a user's skill level decreases, the sweet spot for one or more of the virtual equipment's variables can be adjusted to allow the user's interaction with the virtual equipment to achive values for those variables farther from their means and still have a chance of causing a successful outcome."

   

  I interpret this to basically mean that the "sweet spot" will get smaller as you get more accurate with your clicks. Conversely, it will get bigger, over time, once you stop being so accurate with your clicks. And on and on in a (sometimes vicious) cycle.

  When i watch golf on TV I see pros having WTF moments all the time. Seen Tiger try to burn a hole in the ball with his eyes when a putt didn't break exactly like he thought it would?

  There are so many variables in the real world, that you can only hope to approximate them by introducing randomness into a virtual one. Otherwise you get unrealistic results. Like -22 being the normal everyday winning tourney scores over at the TWO Beta.  yes -22! 

  I do not know why WGT doesn't just come out and say it, but there is a standard deviation in every shot. Maybe that is in the documentation, I dunno. 

  For me, as long as the meter works, all is good. The main fault with this game is the occasional glitches of the meter, not that you occasionally suck at it.

  (this goes for me too :) )

  Maybe they want us to report deviations in bug reports, not to fix them, but so they can tweak the algorithms. And no, the multiplayer wind bug is not part of the game system, that's just a big old, hard to nail down bug I am assuming!

   

  Geeze, when we get up/down and sidehill lies in this game you guys are going to be crying like babies!  (I can't wait!)

   

   

   

• Richard4168 4,309 Posts

  Tue, Jan 26 2010 5:08 AM

  This leaves one to wonder. Am I going to make a good shot this time, or is the shot going to deviate more than the last one. It's unpredictable golf at this point. If the sweet spot keeps getting smaller, the scores are going to remain the same or decline.

  We have all been writing in these forums asking WGT for answers to a playability problem that I guess now never existed. WGT has even said their going to implement patches in the game to fix the deviation problem along with the meter issues. Was this all a bunch of smoke and mirrors? Is their still a need for a "fix" now?

  It seems that WGT tried to implement this new software in the game on the sly and got caught, and now I feel WGT should explain to the members. The game is what it is, there's no changing the playability as it sits, nor will they. So when the new member starts a thread about how their new clubs don't hit right, have fun dealing with that situation over and over.

  This is going to have a negative impact on the game in some capacity.

   

  GL