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VEM in WGT explained

Thu, Nov 26 2015 2:58 PM (258 replies)
  • duffer19
    3,670 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 11:21 AM

    TBE - loved the news print - made my morning man lol, thanks!

  • Steven1163
    2,912 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 12:20 PM

    I agree with ur assessment...to me...IMO...there's nothing really to gripe about...when we signed up we agreed to play this game as is...but what i see is that all this griping about VEM  is just an excuse to explain away our bad playing...or how all the sudden our score isnt what we been shooting...i NEVER blame VEM on how i miss hit...how i miss the dinger...i misjudge a putt or the wind...which i'm still trying to figure out...if i'm shooting great and all the sudden i lose the shot...its not the VEM...its been over thinking or just plain not hitting the correct shot....

  • thebigeasy707
    5,885 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 1:08 PM

    Sure there's folks that'll blame VEM when they've hit the wrong shot BUT when you get decent players like C.I.B for instance complaining about a shot he's hit several times daily & knows his shots inside out....when he gets VEM'd he usually blows up because it's as frustrating as hell on a bad day.

    I can totally see his point because the level of players he and other Tour Legends are playing against...a forced par gratis of VEM is the difference between 1st & 2nd place in single play games.

    Having said that, I do believe all players are confronted by VEM...why wouldn't they be?

    One fundamental reason we are not all getting VEM'd equally in the same RG single play game or indeed any game for that matter is purely and simply because everyone's level of skill & scoring at that precise moment in  time will differ with regards to their pattern of ranked game results...therefore VEM will be taking it easy on some players and hammering the bejesus out of other players...depending on how they've been playing / scoring recently.

    It means peaking for important games & matches is all a matter of timing.

    If players all played identical in every game, day in day out for a month, you'd most likely see VEM effecting players more equally & all at the same time more or less.

    If folks say they don't get VEM'd well.......if it's in the game that each of us all play, how can they say it's not happening to them?

    The VEM patent clearly states to the contrary that VEM is based around the skill level of performance of a player at a given time. Play good and it'll come at you....play not as good and it'll ease off.

  • Steven1163
    2,912 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 1:30 PM

    Oh I whole heartedly agreeTBE...i guess what 'm saying is yes i think i've had a few shots i've hit numerous times and get one of those WTF moments....and i erupt within myself....i just dont dwell on it to point fingers....specially at something there is absolutely WGT is NOT going to do a blame thing about....why should they? Its their game.and they seem to rule with an iron fist...Yes we have the right to discuss it and rant about it....but does that actually do any good? all itdoes i gets everybodys blood pressure going through the ceiling and gets each other to maiking attacks on each other....Do I wish WGT would address this in a way that leaves no doubt as to what they are doing withVEM...absolutely...do I think its going to happen...absoutely...when WGT feels its in their best interest....

  • drmoose
    3,542 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 2:32 PM

    Don't know why I didn't think of this before. Now , I just simply put these on and everything with WGT is just ducky. I"d really like to see these offered in the pro shop so I can get my avatar a pair too, he may actually stop complaining that I haven't improved in six months.

    Doc :)

  • thebigeasy707
    5,885 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 2:33 PM

    I think the more we step back and take a look at the success WGT has achieved over the years with what is a strictly online venture, personally I think they've done a remarkable job and I don't think anyone working in this industry could dispute that.

    Sure they can always make improvements to this game and I think that's their goal....to constantly make tomorrow's game a little better than it is today. Onwards & upwards.

    Online businesses can & do disappear overnight and these guys have kept this game growing steadily now for 7 years and witnessed their competition flounder or fail to even get us hitting off the first tee, so they must be doing something right.

    It's possible Yuchiang & Chad can trace their ancestry back to Scotland...who knows? Whoopi Goldberg even tried to once. That would be the most viable explanation for their wisdom.

    Good luck everyone & be careful what you wish for :)

  • andyson
    6,415 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 4:04 PM

    thebigeasy707:

    If folks say they don't get VEM'd well.......if it's in the game that each of us all play, how can they say it's not happening to them?

    The VEM patent clearly states to the contrary that VEM is based around the skill level of performance of a player at a given time. Play good and it'll come at you....play not as good and it'll ease off.

    OK TBE here's a theory on how some of the best players like BiB and mrenn don't get VEM'd.

    The patent says there is a threshold that must be crossed for VEM to take action.  If a player's skill level increases or decreases enough to exceed that threshold the game acts to either challenge the player, or back off and make it easier.  The patent also says the threshold is non-zero to prevent the Virtual Equipment Model from changing too rapidly.

    Player's skill level, according to the patent, is determined from several (if not many) factors.  The patent says "In one implementation, user skill level is quantified as a number."

    Each one of the factors determining skill level must also be measured and quantified as a number.  For ease of discussion say there are 10 factors each receiving a maximum performance level of 10 points.  Your skill level value goes from 0 to 100.

    As an example say one of the factors they measure is our average distance to the pin on approaches over the last 20 shots.  If your average is greater than 50 feet you get 0 points,   15ft you get 5, inside 5 feet you get 10 points.

    The same is done for the other 9 factors.

    Each factor has a min and a max. 

    In theory then, a player would never get VEM'd if they maxed out the Skill Level value of 100.

    And if the threshold was set at 3, once a player reached skill level 98 they are home free of VEM because a 98 to 100 jump is still below the threshold.

    What if the programmer who implemented the Skill Level Monitor and Virtual Equipment Model was not a golfer or a gamer?  He probably set max scores of 10 for values he never thought reachable ("No one will ever average less than 5 feet in their last 20 shots").  But then there's the 0.1% of the population who are just that good.

    To summarize, in order to get VEM'd in the bad sense, you have to show an increase in total Skill Level greater than a threshold value.  If a player's total Skill Level is at or near the maximum Skill Level computed by WGT, they cannot show improvement, so they never get VEM'd.

    And that, IMO, would be a bug in WGT's implementation.

  • thebigeasy707
    5,885 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 4:37 PM

    it's all a matter of interpretation mate.

    in my opinion and from the game results I see....no one is maxing out the skill level all the time...not even the best players, therefore VEM will be in play to some degree as results fluctuate from 65's to 55's and vice versa.

    andyson:
    And that, IMO, would be a bug in WGT's implementation.

    well WGT are prone to their fair share of bugs...so the likelyhood of VEM implementation being buggy... I can go with that.

    at least the conversation regarding VEM is back heading in a more positive constructive direction, so that's good.

    it's better than reading "-8 through 8 then blammo! $$%###321FK vem !!!" lol

  • andyson
    6,415 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 4:52 PM

    thebigeasy707:
    Online businesses can & do disappear overnight and these guys have kept this game growing steadily now for 7 years........

    Actually TBE, pretty stagnant over the last 18 months.  Interesting that May saw a decrease over April even with the introduction of Merion.  Last year saw an increase.

    Source of WGT data.   Source of TGC data

  • duffer19
    3,670 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2013 4:54 PM

    andyson:

    As an example say one of the factors they measure is our average distance to the pin on approaches over the last 20 shots.  If your average is greater than 50 feet you get 0 points,   15ft you get 5, inside 5 feet you get 10 points.

    The same is done for the other 9 factors.

    Each factor has a min and a max. 

    In theory then, a player would never get VEM'd if they maxed out the Skill Level value of 100.

    And if the threshold was set at 3, once a player reached skill level 98 they are home free of VEM because a 98 to 100 jump is still below the threshold.

    Has VEM always been a part of this game or was it introduced last year for example?

    I ask, because the last few posts have really been wonderful in outlining this and I wondered.......

    did a players average at the introduction of VEM set that players skill level as a base/starting point?  Let's say a player had a 59 average when it was first implemented.  That is to say they may have a VEM skill rating at or near 95.

    It would be improbable then, for said player to shoot 20 shots closer to the pin than the 95 rating would infer, or say drop their average to 54 repeatedly and suffer erratic or strong VEM.

    I don't know if I'm making any sense, but it would seem, if any of the above is true, that upon implementation of VEM, less skilled players would be penalized more along their path of improvement overall than players with established higher skill ratings.

    Say a player who's rating might be 70 would suffer more when posting scores in the low 60's or hitting many shots inside 10feet for example than players with a 90 rating who already were posting scores in the mid-upper 50's and had no troubles getting inside 10' regularly.

    Seems to me, it will be harder to get better and be more consistent for those climbing the skill/avg tree than those who already were there, thus an imbalance of VEM effect from one player type/skill to another.

    just trying to wrap my noggin around this, but this thread has turned into awesomeville!

    thanks guys

     

     

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