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WGT's new method of determinng scoring avg...

• AceHoler26 347 Posts

  Sat, Aug 31 2013 4:18 AM

  For obvious reasons WGT never reveals how they calculate a player's average.  At one time in the not too distant past I did have customer service tell me that it was a combination of how a player does in match play, challenges for credits, tournaments and stroke play.

  But there has been a change recently.

  From what I have observed I believe that only ranked stroke play is being used to
  calculate your average.  While this is a much better way to accurately portray
  a player's real playing ability, I think it also makes sandbagging much easier. And
  it's only 100% accurate if a player is ONLY playing stroke play.

  I know that I made Legend tier faster because I was playing Legends in match play when I was a Tour Master.  I had the advantage of the shorter tees and starting winning
  many of those matches.  Each time I beat a Legend my scoring average would drop as
  much as .75 (way too much I thought).  But conversely if I lost it did not
  affect my scoring average at all.  My average finally hit 61 and I was bumped to
  Legend.  The problem is that my REAL scoring average based solely on stroke play
  would have probably been anywhere from 67-69.

  I think there still needs to be some tweaking of the calculation.  People that are
  currently Masters and Tour Masters who have a scoring average of, say, 68 or so will
  find it extremely difficult to make Legend if having to get down to 61 avg using
  only stroke play.

  And then there are those that will make sure they won't get to Legend...

  Using only stroke play to calculate average will allow the sandbaggers to keep throwing in a crappy ranked round to insure they don't go down to 61.  By doing this they will still be leveling up and will wind up getting better equipment than players
  that are Legend tier and will still be shooting from shorter tees. In matches for
  credits or tournaments for credits it gives them an advantage against players in
  their own tier and a huge advantage over Legend players who still have to use the
  tees that are in the next zip code.

  I know one player (not a sandbagger) who has racked up thousands of credits in challenge matches.  Yet when he wins a challenge match his scoring average doesn't go down even a fraction.  So when someone plays him and sees his scoring average sititng at just over 66, they think they are playing someone of 66 avg per round ability.  In reality his REAL scoring average is probably around 61 or 62.  Close to Tour Legend
  stuff.  So they play him thinking they can be competitive and they get fleeced...lol.

  Not any fault of his, it's just that the way WGT is doing the scoring averages now
  is not really reflective of a player's ability.  In theory a player could keep a
  72 scoring average by manipulating his/her stroke play rounds while knowing he/she really can shoot 61-63 anytime he/she wants.  Then he/she goes out and plays other plaayers for credits and blows them away, piling up credits in the process.  And he/she knows that any score in these challenge matches will not cause their average to drop.

  That needs to change, in my opinion.

  And that's what I mean by the new stroke play average leading to easy sandbagging.

  Anybody else have any thoughts on this ?

• alosso 21,083 Posts

  Sat, Aug 31 2013 10:04 AM

  You bring new information about challenges and average.

  It has been less than a year that WGT installed the "anti-sandbagging" measures, counting match play wins and credit wins in the tiering calculations. Like you, I experienced .7 drops when winning against Legends as a TM.

  IMHO, it would be a step back if this had been disabled - comments on users' experiences and official statements welcome!

   

  Side remark:

  Please allow me to point out that good scores can't be "healed" by bad scores. Due to the limited number of scores in the calculation, there will be enough good ones to push those fakey bad ones out. The only way not to tier up is not to play the required no. of good rounds. Alas, certain players just change their account, carry over their credits and restart. Notices of punishment by our host are scarce, unfortunately.

• fairground11 1,211 Posts

  Sat, Aug 31 2013 10:47 AM

  once you reach legend level only ranked stroke play affects the average not challenge matches

• AceHoler26 347 Posts

  Sat, Aug 31 2013 8:10 PM

  I will address the 2 points brought up by the 2 people that have replied:

  1) Scores can't be "healed" by shooting an occasionally high score.

     They don't have to be "healed".  When a player reaches a new tier
     their scores reset.  All they have to do is shoot the scores all the
     time that they want their average to be set at.  Let me give you
     an example:

     Mr Sandbagger reaches the Legend tier.  He shoots a solo stroke play
     round and shoots 72.  His average is set at 72.  He now only has to
     shoot between 70-72 on purpose every time he plays stroke play to
     keep his average above 70.  Mr Sandbagger knows he can go out and
     shoot in the low 60s just about anytime he wants.  Low 60s are his
     skill level.  Mr Sandbagger sets up challenge matches for let's say
     500 credits or so.  Someone comes in to accept the challenge.  A
     player who's REAL average is around 66 or 67.  He sees Mr Sandbagger
     has a stroke average of 71.5 and thinks, I can easily take this
     guy and win 500 credits.  So he accepts the challenge.  Little does
     he know that Mr Sandbagger is about to go out and shoot anywhere from
     a 29 to a 32 for the 9 hole challenge because that is Mr Sandbagger's
     true skill level.  Mr Sandbagger is playing at Tour Legend skill but
     manipulates his average to look like he is a Legend who shoots right
     around par.

     Result: Mr Honesty was just fleeced out of 500 credits by Mr Sandbagger.

     Does that make sense ?  It does to me.

     To correct this, WGT MUST include challenge wins in lowering Mr Sandbagger's
     average.  That is the only way to get Mr Sandbagger's average more in
     line with his actual skill level.  His average MUST reflect his actual
     skill level so that players accepting his challenge will know if the
     match will be competitive.  I would say they need to use match play
     wins to be included in the calculation whether or not they are challenge
     matches.  Otherwise Mr Sandbagger can just keep playing match play
     to improve his skills without ever having to worry about his average
     falling.  Then maybe once a week he goes and shoots a solo stroke
     play round and shoots a 72 by design.

  2) Only stroke play affects average when someone reaches Legend

     If that is true, it still lends itself to sandbagging as outlined above.
     However, I seem to have observed that my friends who are Masters and
     Tour Masters are not seeing their average drop if they beat me in a
     match.  But I will double check this.

  I would think most sandbaggers are at the Legend tier, because you have to
  be a very good player in order to sandbag and make yourself look like a
  lesser player than what you actually are.

• AceHoler26 347 Posts

  Sat, Aug 31 2013 9:57 PM

  Update:

  Just lost to a Tour Master and his average dropped by .75

  However, since Legends are only calculated by stroke play,
  the previously outlined sandbagging scenario is still very
  possible.

  WGT needs to figure out how to include match play and challenge
  matches into the calculation of average for Legends in order
  to prevent the kind of sandbagging that I described.

• fairground11 1,211 Posts

  Mon, Sep 2 2013 2:27 AM

  whilst i can see where you are coming from the attitude of wgt (quite right imo) is that the fact you are playing a legend tells you straight away that you are playing a decent player regardless of their average

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Mon, Sep 2 2013 2:51 AM

  AceHoler26:

  However, since Legends are only calculated by stroke play,
  the previously outlined sandbagging scenario is still very
  possible.

  I do not want to see any change to the way Legend averages are calculated.  Reaching TL is still a big achievement, and the last thing we want is paper TLs.  I can play a Legend with a 64+ average and I would always anticipate a tight game.  Those few extra points in less average are not that meaningful hole by hole anyway.  

  Personally I would not play any one in a challenge game without knowing them.

  In an imperfect world I think player beware is the best advice here, no change required or wanted for Legend tier IMO!

   

• AceHoler26 347 Posts

  Mon, Sep 2 2013 5:48 AM

  Jimbog1964:

  AceHoler26:

  However, since Legends are only calculated by stroke play,
  the previously outlined sandbagging scenario is still very
  possible.

  I do not want to see any change to the way Legend averages are calculated.  Reaching TL is still a big achievement, and the last thing we want is paper TLs.  I can play a Legend with a 64+ average and I would always anticipate a tight game.  Those few extra points in less average are not that meaningful hole by hole anyway.  

  Personally I would not play any one in a challenge game without knowing them.

  In an imperfect world I think player beware is the best advice here, no change required or wanted IMO!

   

  The very astute point you made in your post is that you would not play
  a challenge match with someone you didn't know.  That would definitely
  keep you from getting fleeced because you know the REAL ability of the
  person you would be playing.

  However, that does not address the thousands of players that like to
  play challenge matches and use the scoring average to determine if they
  are about to get in a competitive match.

  As for the point that the the extra points in scoring average don't
  matter hole by hole, you're joking right ?

  Let me paint you the scenario of how that matters a great deal:

  I will use myself as an example.  My REAL stroke average is listed at
  71.31 right now.  And I can tell you that is an accurate description
  of my skill level from the Legend tees.  That means that in 18 holes
  I am playing not quite an average of -1 for a Par 72 course.

  For arguments sake let's say that right now I am averaging 35 per
  9 holes which is bringing down my scoring average slowly but surely
  This means that on average I am getting ONE birdie per 9 holes.  If
  I am playing REALLY WELL, maybe I will get 3 or 4 birdies per 9 holes.

  I set up a Challenge match for 500 credits.  I dismiss any Tour Legends
  that show up because I know I would just be making a donation of 500
  credits.  I wait for another Legend who has a scoring average fairly
  close to mine.  Mr sandbagger shows up and I see he has a scoring
  average of 70.5.  I say to myself, he's probably a little better than
  I am but if I play well I have a chance to take him.  So I start the
  match with him and wish Mr Sandbagger luck.

  Little do I know that Mr Sandbagger's REAL stroke average is more along
  the lines of 61.  What this means is that he averages -11 for a Par 72
  course or -5.5 for 9 holes.  So on average he records 5 or 6 birdies
  for 9 holes while I record 1.  Only there is no way for me to know that.

  And you say that doesn't matter hole by hole ???? LOL  If he does his
  average of 5 birds in the 9 hole match, and I do my average of 1 bird,
  that means he pretty much has 4 holes in the bag before we even start
  and he only needs to win 5 holes to win the challenge !!!  How does
  that not matter ??

  If you don't want "paper Tour Legends", the solution is simple.  This
  is a computer program and can be programmed to use any data available.
  WGT can display an "aggregate scoring average" of a player while keeping
  their stroke play only average behind the scenes(or they could display
  that as well).  Legends can only "tier up" using the stroke play only
  average that WGT is keeping track of.  However, if they displayed
  "aggregate" average it would show other players that Mr Sandbagger is
  really playing at a Tour Legend level based on challenge matches.

  WGT could even run reports that spit out this discrepancy and print out
  a "sandbagging watch report" for their own internal use.  I mean WGT
  claims they want to do everything they can to weed out the sandbaggers,
  right ?

  Plus if they displayed both "aggregate" average and "stroke only" average,
  and I see a player has a stroke play average of 70 and an aggregate average
  of 62, then I know something is rotten in Denmark and I won't accept that
  player into my challenge match.

  I had a career in Information Technology for nearly 30 years, and everything
  I just described is easily programmable.

  WGT can never really stop all sandbagging....but why not make it much more
  difficult to do ?  Let's not make it easy for Mr Sandbagger...and right now
  it is easy.

• BubbaCrusher007 1,567 Posts

  Mon, Sep 2 2013 12:00 PM

  I don't get why a 29 didn't move my ave. down.  I wasn't gonna say anything and I saw this thread. I know I've reached saturation for number of rounds played. I 've only shot a 2800 ranked rounds.

  It had been dropping a point everytime I shoot a 29. But now I suppose I have lowered my ave. enough to where I have to shoot a 28 now to move it idk lol. My ave. is 60.34.

  2 X 29=58 Last time I checked, 58 is lower than 60.34. Just curious how all of the sudden it didn't drop.

  edit: I know that it depends on the course whether its a par 70 or 71 & so on. It's a Bethpage front.

• Mushy01 2,567 Posts

  Mon, Sep 2 2013 12:21 PM

  It will of dropped Bubba m8, but not to the eye , probably down to 3 or 4 decimal places

  e.g  0.0075

  and a 30 will also be dropping it, but ever so slightly, I'm guessing you only have a few more 31's to displace ;-)