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High ding rate = cheating?

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 4:15 PM

  TopShelf2010:

  But then again, this is not a trial by jury. This is a one-time verdict. As the defendant was given the chance to prove his innocence, is he not also allowed the right to appeal?

  Yes.  We (HE) offered to take them up on Skype as less strain on resources for a go more (flip 3 more might be better).  I don't know much about that avenue, just told a good thing and as say not investigated it (way too much time already and not had the chance).

  Imagine a two week lay off, 10 minutes warm up, get put out in difficult basic champ conditions, a meter worse than jumpin jack flash to play with, still shoot -8 thru 9 and guilty end of discussion based on not enough dings in the only "trial" you are getting.

   

  alanti:

  What else has gone on behind the scene is less clear, but IF the explanation we have seen is the only factor involved, then "Houston we have a problem".

  Our point as much as anything.  If it's deliberate misinformation it's also pi$$ poor as it's all we have been given.  It is so obviously flawed logic but maybe it's all what they did if taking all possibilities in?  Not good enough from them is my view!

• duffer19 3,670 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 4:31 PM

  I just wish there were a better way than this.  I mean this with a huge assumption that it's a no no to share "classified" info.   I doubt it is' yet it's sure treated as such.   I too fear the time out room for those I hold in elevated regard.   

  Puff puff pass....

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 4:48 PM

  If we (the perps) are deemed to deserve time out (or worse) by the powers that be, so be it...we consider the risk worthwhile.

  As I said to my clubmates in our CC forum (quoting Franklin upon his signing of the Declaration of Independence)...

  "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." 

• coors71 656 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 5:28 PM

  +1 sir.

     If I may add a quote that fits this, 

   

  Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

  Martin Luther King, Jr.

   

  So with that, we will stand or fall together I suppose. Am I worried? Nope not at all. But I will go the distance whatever that is. 

  And this is for one person only, they know whom they are.

  We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.

  Epictetus

   

• Magpiesaregood 265 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 5:40 PM

  Totally agree.

  
  

  Now just to add some balance to this discussion, is he a friend of mine, yes without a doubt, will he continue to be a friend, absolutely, are my views tainted or bias because of this, sure they are. My intentions have not been to criticising others, questioning their opinions or offend anyone and if I have I apologise in advance. But I do feel strongly towards this issue, just like others. 

  Just to get this post back on track, there has been many opinions given whether a ding % is achievable or not. All valid opinions and no right or wrong. In all honesty I have no idea if it is possible, if people can, cant, wont or will. That is by the by. 

  The real issue, to me anyway, is how a player can be banned for his ding % ?? Not my words, WGT’s. So the question is if a players % varies outside what WGT deems “the norm” then they are assumed obviously cheating and subsequently banned, is that right? So what next? What about if you’re driving accuracy % falls outside WGT’s parameters, how about your greens in regulation % or your sand save and scrambling % ?? Maybe your one putt % is to high, or your three putts or more % is to low ?? Does that mean your cheating?? Maybe, maybe not. 

  Heaven help anyone who tries to improve their game. Put in time, effort and money only to be banned because you have over achieved the acceptable parameters. 

  Surely, surely, the onus of proof lies with WGT, unfortunately however difficult that may be. But to base proof purely on the biases of statistics is not proof. How can one be proven guilty? In any fair and reasonable discussion, land, law, organisation, the presumption of innocence surely applies until proven otherwise. 

  Anyway I’m done, not much more I can add. 

  Happy hitting everyone, play well and hit them straight. But beware, don’t play to well or hit them to straight, you never know you might be next !!

• lonniescott711 4,204 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 5:54 PM

  You guys sound like you are trying to figure out how to break someone out of prison . :-) Oh my offer still stands about the lessons on how to play off the ding .

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 6:04 PM

  Magpies, another well-thought post by you, much appreciated.

  Lonnie, that's exactly what we're trying to do, or more accurately, get his sentence commuted and secure his pardon.

  Your offer is generous...but I'm already an off-ding player, no choice given the sorry state of my reflexes.

  ;-)

• jeffmatulich 482 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 6:43 PM

  Magpiesaregood:

  The real issue, to me anyway, is how a player can be banned for his ding % ??

   

  Magpies.....and everyone else

   

  Look, that isn't and cannot be the only factor.  It is however the one they are hanging their hat on - which by the tc's is all they need to do - whether we like it or not.  They have ALL the stats (of all the algorithmic permutations of their models) of ALL shots ever played by EVERY player since the beginning of time.  They wrote the code.  They know what the standard deviations are supposed look like within the multitude of algorithms they have developed (club, ball properties, vem diviations etc...).  Its not rocket science.  80% ding is straight up stupid crazy out of spectrum good which triggered further investigation....Simple as that.  Don't care that he had 2 weeks off, was an insomniac, smoked meth, had super human hand eye coordination and shot -8 over nine.  Score has ZERO bearing on this discussion.  End of the day, it is NOT how they programmed the game and his results raised major red flags that resulted in further investigation.

  The other thing to consider here is that they are not looking at the everyday Joe/Jane here.  They are looking at (and for) the ones who are raking the chips on RGs and other (for credits/money) games.  They are doing the right thing to level the playing field and I totally respect and get what they are doing - though IMHO they could do more given the amount of "big data" they have.  Its just not that hard (at least for someone that live's here in silicon valley).  Perhaps I should apply.  I can see it now "Jeff - Anti Cheat Tzar"  --- has a ring to it - don't you think?  Just kidding of course....

  Seriously though the more I have off forum discussions  (both here and on our site) with top players (some pretty serious wgt'ers), the notion of 80% ding becomes laughable.  Hey folks ..........(sorry don't mean to sound like Jonny Miller).....show me otherwise.  Seriously, shouldn't be that hard to find one upper echelon player that would be willing to take on the challenge, right?  Just one...Just one that can attain 75+% ding over ANY 60 9 hole rounds (of their choosing) they post.  Doubt it will happen and will gladly eat my hat if it does.

   

   

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 7:28 PM

  Well I have spoken to some (v good sources) and my inf is saying that much dinging is achievable.  Not sure anyone has 30 days stats, but we are asked to rely on WGT being right.  Well they are not right on the 40%, and how they arrived at that when many choose to miss I have no clue.........They won't say of course and so we speculate.

  What we do certainly know is x1 9 hole round with an awful meter saw a score of -8, and with wind and champ conditions.  Task manager was up.  We also know that under those conditions the ding was veering half of what he might usually do (assuming that fig is 100% correct).

  We also know they won't even allow him to skype with them to see (I am told a good way but only quickly and not checked that).  They offered it though, and he is willing and able to do that.......

  Few fairer rounds, and see how he goes one way or the other seems simply reasonable.  Why are they so against a proper look?

• MBaggese 15,367 Posts

  Wed, Jul 20 2016 7:35 PM

  Well hell...what a cluster fluck.

  Okay...seems someone at the RDG CC has contact with MrQ...but as I see it, we've only seen the last bit of communication from WGT to Mr Q.

   

  Please (someone for RDG) post all the PM's/emails-whatever-that were sent.

   

  Why?

   

  Because did MrQ go into the 9 hole trial knowing he was going to be held to 79% ding rate?

  Or was he going in to show he could do -8 through 9 holes?

   

  Without the knowledge of the prior communications...we just don't know.

   

  I have some theories, but no use blowing smoke right now.

   

  So please, someone from RDG, put out all the communications.

   

  That said, I'm not a top gplayer here either, but I am a top poster...so I get to type;)

   

  80% ding rate...that's effing hard to do...like my mate BC...I thought I'd try to keep track, so at the F9 RG at KI, off #1 I went ding-ding-ding-bird...don't believe I hit another ding for 5 or 6 holes...so quit counting and posted a 29 (should have been a--never mind;) ).

   

  Anyway, I'd like to know the conditions MrQ thought he was playing under...heck, a reasonable person would say "man, I have to hit 80% of dings with this meter/lag-happening"?  you think mentally after a few holes he'd say "guy's, you see my meter, no way I can dng this"

   

  So again, a reasonable person who kept playing under mod winds at SA, would think "You don't think I can score well while being watched"?..."watch me"...then that same person would say ""I'll show'em, eff the meter BS, I'll time early not to be late, and hit late not to be early"...."I know how to play this game".

   

  I mean heck, why would this same very player call out Mags, and others in these same forums, talk about himself in the same category as Mags, WoL, etc...sure, to be looked at and caught cheating.

   

  One other thing...anyone notice Young46's 1000Cr MP tourney?

   

  See how Q did there...IIRC, in his 2nd match he got thumped.

   

  But...what I think is different in this thread (although we don't know the entire conversation between WGT and MrQ) as opposed to what the "security Sweep" thread turned into, is we KNOW WGT will give a reason for banning a player-to said player.

   

  Not the "I wasn't told why I was banned".

   

  Big difference for his mates sticking up for him in this thread, vs the other SS thread.