Forums

Ok WGT

• Miantiao 401 Posts

  Wed, Feb 14 2018 6:56 PM

  Wow! Plenty of paranoid conspiracy diatribes here.

  Generally, if one has a bad round then one hasn't played very well, it is as simple as that.

  There's a difference between playing in the zone with your mojo workin, and playing hungover or tired. 

  Regarding social media and forums:  Those that label others cowards for speaking their mind might do well moving to a country where there is no freedom of speech, where there is zero chance of being offended, or speaking your mind.....

   

• 11BC2 555 Posts

  Thu, Feb 15 2018 3:30 PM

  Heath021:

  I know there are others who feel my pain...lol.

  +1

  VEM is alive and well and working overtime.  GG no re.

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Thu, Feb 15 2018 4:00 PM

  Miantiao:

  Generally, if one has a bad round then one hasn't played very well, it is as simple as that.

  Since you used the word "generally" it seems you recognize what I may also point out.  On one hand this is true, but you can also do everything "correctly" and by the numbers just as you would on any other round and score significantly different due to the "variance" that is built into the game.  

  It also happens in the reverse, I have seemed to mishit a bunch of shots but I end up having a round where nothing misses.  It is as though I felt "I was being helped" because I know I made a "mistake" or hit late and somehow my ball ends up 3 feet from the hole.  

  I can remember a couple rounds as I was getting started where I felt, holy cow, I know I am not this good yet...but everything worked...then there are rounds where I am dinging nearly everything and what some report as "VEM" kicks in and I start getting wonky results and my shots don't respond normally.  

  I don't think these are conspiracy theories, they are actual results and outcomes due to the software that is designed to create somewhat "varied" results.  Granted you cant "control" the expected result to a certain degree but you are still at the mercy of the result the software spits out...it is because of this built in variance "speculative" theories or views arise but we are all just trying to make sense of what sometimes doesn't appear reasonable.

   

• dacrash 475 Posts

  Fri, Feb 16 2018 6:56 PM

  Well the pro's are not perfect every week or round either.  Just wach the PGA and the same player is not going to win every week just because he has the skill to.  Rory what? 4-5 putted a hole last week.  Tiger cant make the cut, etc.  In that respect this game is almost like real life.  Wether its VEM or not, it is what makes this game more realistic than other canned video games.

  I have experienced this many many times myself.  Trick is to move on and make it up on the next shot.  If it follows you all game, go with it.  Try different shots.  Wait for next game.

  Or you can stop playing for 3 years like i did and get a new perspective for this game.  I came back recently and I expect VEM to happen, but I enjoy myself now more than I used to.

  dacrash

• Miantiao 401 Posts

  Mon, Feb 19 2018 5:32 AM

  el3n1:

  Since you used the word "generally" it seems you recognize what I may also point out. 

  Er, no. However, some holes have nuances that affect an accurate calc are some individual holes. Once those nuances have been discovered they are quickly internalised.

  You'll notice some holes play longer on approach compared to the majority. Congressional 18th is a great example - green is generally 30ft down in elevation from approach which equates to minus ten yrds for a mid to long iron, however playing to calc will land you 5-7 yrds short using a Nike lvl48 or lvl61 distance ball with full backspin.

  I bought a notebook to jot down these discrepancies for individual holes. Importantly, some holes play long or short on approach, for reasons I'm yet to discover, whereas some holes are less affected by breeze - topography perhaps. However, elevation and distance also affects ball flight/breeze matrix.

  The goal is to land within 6ft of the pin, and 10 ft for a missed ding against the breeze To miss the ding with the breeze or slope will result in a very ugly shot, and so will under or overestimating the breeze, distance or slope and dinging every shot or putt. 

  If I play a bad round it's because I've erred with the breeze or the slope of the green, and not against.

  el3n1:

  I don't think these are conspiracy theories, they are actual results and outcomes due to the software that is designed to create somewhat "varied" results. 

  So, you're basically saying that the game software is driven by AI? I don't believe that for a second.

  The best players on WGT know their clubs and ball, know how each hole's nuances affect their calc, and where they want to land on the green, and adjust accordingly. 

  To state that the programming is random is stating that the best players on WGT really haven't got a clue and are just randomly landing within 10ft of the pin nine times out of ten, and then nailing the putt. 

   

   

• 11BC2 555 Posts

  Mon, Feb 19 2018 11:54 AM

  Miantiao:

  To state that the programming is random is stating that the best players on WGT really haven't got a clue and are just randomly landing within 10ft of the pin nine times out of ten, and then nailing the putt. 

  I say this with no negative tone Miantiao; you are absolutely incorrect.  Here is the link to WGT's patent on  VEM:  https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070243926A1/en?inventor=Yuchiang+Cheng

  Simply put, the better you play the more variance you will have on every single shot, regardless if you hit early, Ding it, or late.  The patent doesn't tell us if there is a ceiling on how much randomness is applied, how long it last, or what the parameters for VEM are.  We just accept it's part of the game and do our best to sink the putt o_^.
  

  If you watch any streams you'll notice many of us indeed get strange shots and comment on them.  For those who don't record or type any comments  you'll notice players going back to check the replay (Fmags does this a lot).  There's good info out there man.  Just throw out a quick search and soak it all in.

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Mon, Feb 19 2018 1:12 PM

  Miantiao:

  To state that the programming is random is stating that the best players on WGT really haven't got a clue and are just randomly landing within 10ft of the pin nine times out of ten, and then nailing the putt. 

  I agree with parts of what you are saying, there is qualitative value in learning your shots and your ball and club combination!  I also wholeheartedly agree with Sean (11bc2) and the information he has shared regarding VEM.  

  You can not think of it as a definitive output for the "settings you put in" and are then converted by the algorithims into the output you see on the screen.  There is a degree of built in "variance".  It is why some people have attempted to explain this with the Vin diagram circles showing that based on any input provided the output could effectively end up anywhere within that "range" of the 5, 10, 20 foot circle(s).  You can not think of it as completely random, but "random" within the confines of the precision, forgiveness, and input variables presented prior to the output being determined. The better clubs have smaller "circles" which allow for more accurate shots but you can still hit a shot exactly the same 10 times under the same conditions and likely get 10 different outputs! 

  The better you play and the better equipment you have the "smaller the range or variance" you will still see some but it will still exist!  And yes, the better players, simply putt better!  They tend to know the greens far better than the rest of us because they have played countless rounds.

  That being said, they also know the conditions, the winds, the greens how the slope of a green will move their ball towards the hole ... and all of that helps... but they also can be victim to being humbled by VEM at times. 

  I have been told while some post most of their rounds, they largely only post or leave up on youtube their best rounds!  So, you will not always see or catch them having a tough hole.  I have watched one elite player 3 putt from about 3 feet on a Merion green before...this is crazy because he makes more HIO's than he does 3 putts!  But, while watching that "LIVE" stream, I too noticed on the first putt it broke more than expected or not at all, and then did the opposite on the way back.  This could very easily have been VEM or a mistake but I have felt as though VEM has kept a putt or two from falling for me a few times as well when I was confident in the line.  

   

• Miantiao 401 Posts

  Mon, Feb 19 2018 5:27 PM

   

  11BC2:

  Simply put, the better you play the more variance you will have on every single shot, regardless if you hit early, Ding it, or late.

  Not according to my own experience. If I miss a putt I know why. If I land short, long or further than 10ft from the pin I know why, and you should know too...

  Nevertheless, I'm not saying I have ever had a strange shot. However, such strange shots  involve the pin or cup edge. I'm sure you've experienced a ball landing on the edge of the cup and shooting off 40 yrds out of bounds before.

  Moreover the best players attain consistency because they know their clubs and the ball they play with in regards distances, and ball flight.They've also played enough rounds to internalise individual hole nuances. I bought a WGT notebook to jot these down, but only to help with internalisation.

  Club mapping and calculation for distance and elevation and  works. Estimating breeze effect on ball flight is a variable, but not random.

  If there is such 'randomness' programmed into the software as you say, then it is subtle and has negligible affect on good players' shot outcomes.

   

• Miantiao 401 Posts

  Mon, Feb 19 2018 5:51 PM

  el3n1:

  You can not think of it as completely random, but "random" within the confines of the precision, forgiveness, and input variables presented prior to the output being determined. The better clubs have smaller "circles" which allow for more accurate shots but you can still hit a shot exactly the same 10 times under the same conditions and likely get 10 different outputs! 

  Agree. However, the difference in outcome for each of those exact same shots in exact same conditions on the same hole would be negligible - perhaps a foot or two, or , as you say, more according to the 'circle of randomness' with lower rated clubs and balls. 

  As such, the math works. Estimating ball flight according to breeze is based more on experience, although I have seen and read players' posts regarding mapping breeze/distance/ball flight matrix. 

  Regarding

  el3n1:

  I have watched one elite player 3 putt from about 3 feet on a Merion green before...this is crazy because he makes more HIO's than he does 3 putts!  But, while watching that "LIVE" stream, I too noticed on the first putt it broke more than expected or not at all, and then did the opposite on the way back.

  I've done the same. A 5 foot very slippery putt on a fast sloping green is much more difficult to sink than a 20ft straight putt. 5ft and down 3 inches on such a slope with Championship greens is a nightmare. One can either risk hitting through the break a little, or sending the ball out on an angle or almost horizontal to the cup. Missing and having to come back up the break stiffens because the ball rolls faster. The break past the hole may be different as well. Best to use 'chip' and double check.

  Anyway, the yips aren't a great place to be, and yes even the best players have *** rounds, just not as many as most.

• 11BC2 555 Posts

  Mon, Feb 19 2018 6:20 PM

  Miantiao:

  Not according to my own experience. If I miss a putt I know why. If I land short, long or further than 10ft from the pin I know why, and you should know too...

  Did you even read the patent in the link I provided?

  7. The computer-implemented method of claim 1, where:

  the determining is in response to detecting an improvement or a decline in the user skill level.

  
  

  Very clearly, the better (or worse you play) will effect your gameplay.  Not sure what else to tell you.  There's 19 other claims that compliment the above.  So we've got the link.  We can see the WGT patent.  All the information is clearly listed.  
  

  
  

  It doesn't make a difference if you're a beginner or an expert, VEM will effect you, regardless how well you've mapped out your clubs, courses, indvidual holes,etc.   I've made many references to VEM in my past videos.  Young46 currently has a 9min video dedicated to VEM on his Wgt home page.