Forums

Ok WGT

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Mon, Feb 19 2018 6:22 PM

  You can replace the word random with variable output and it is still essentially the same thing.  You are over emphasizing the idea of somethong being completely random and simply being randomized within certain restrictive parameters.  Better clubs and better players will have reduced the variation they see because they do know their equipment better and how it plays with a certain ball but you never get an exact same output every time otherwise scoring would likely be even better... it builds in variance so you do know approximately what your clubs will do but it wont be exactly the same every time but it will be close enough for you to usually have a makeable putt.  

• Miantiao 401 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 10:31 AM

  11BC2:

  7. The computer-implemented method of claim 1, where:

  the determining is in response to detecting an improvement or a decline in the user skill level.

  Perhaps you may like to peruse these points. Pay particular attention to the bold italic type..(Edited) I know through experience, and the below has confirmed it. No way in the wide virtual world of WGT could any player sit and practice the same shot over and again in the same conditions, with the same equipment, on the same hole in attempt to prove me wrong, and in any case I'm not..

  • [0017]
    In various implementations, a given piece of virtual equipment has one or more associated “sweet spots”. A sweet spot translates into a margin of error that a user's interaction with a piece of virtual equipment will cause an intended outcome in a virtual universe. In one implementation, a large sweet spot corresponds to a greater deviation on a normalized distribution curve and a small sweet spot corresponds to a lesser deviation on a normalized distribution curve.
  • [0018]
    For example, there are different types of golf clubs for golfers of differing abilities, each golf club having various sized and located sweet spots. Generally speaking, a golfer can select a club based on the golfer's swing speed and power, and based on the golf club's sweet spot. A club with a large sweet spot tends to be very forgiving since the club's face has been designed with a large surface area in which to make contact with the ball and has a perimeter weigh distribution to balance a miss hit. A golfer's swing of a club with a large sweet spot can be several standard deviations from the mean—the mean being a perfect swing—and still result in an acceptable shot. However, in having a large sweet spot the golfer usually forgoes some level of control, power and feel. For a professional golf club, the sweet spot is much smaller and requires a greater amount of skill to correctly hit the ball but the rewards for hitting a proper shot usually result in farther distance, control, precision, and accuracy. A golfer's swing of a club with a small sweet spot must be closer to the mean in order to be an acceptable shot.
  • [0019]
    In real life, as users become more skilled with equipment, their existing equipment is easier to use and they can select new equipment that gives them an increased level of control. This observation forms the basis for automatically adjusting a piece of virtual equipment's sweet spot(s) according to a user's skill level.

  Basically, one's Tier determines skill level, and not the player's recent form. You see where this is going now?

  Therefore, a lvl 90+ Tour Pro or Master hasn't really got a hope in hell using RSi Irons or the Nike Vapours, because their skill level just doesn't allow it, and that's why high lvl TPs, Masters and even Legends remain so.

  Any variance in outcome of exactly the same shot, in exactly the same conditions, using exactly the same virual equipment, and on the same hole would be miniscule for a Champion player using the best equipment, full stop.

   

   

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 2:24 PM

  Miantiao:

  Any variance in outcome of exactly the same shot, in exactly the same conditions, using exactly the same virual equipment, and on the same hole would be miniscule for a Champion player using the best equipment, full stop.

  your delusions have become comical.  and while practice mode is not exactly like ranked play you can repeat shots over and over and they would essentially play the same if your are supposedly correct and you are not...

  according to you a "skilled player" could land 10 balls in a 1-2 foot circle and the game does not allow or permit that to happen.  your claims of accuracy and "miniscule" differences are delusions of how the outcomes are actually determined.  but you clearly don't have the ability to comprehend that.  it is likely speculation to determine what the "range" or "variance" set by WGT is for the various clubs and the club and ball combinations but I am certain they are much greater than a 1-2 foot of deviation between each shot!  Such a claim is plain absurd!

  if there were more truth to your "ramblings" you would be shooting 18-22 under par every single time and it just doesn't happen --you are not posting those scores and you are clearly a "skilled" champion tier player.  

  it is far more likely your understanding is off and only certain aspects of what you believe to be true have value whereas your overall conclusions are just wrong here.   Why don't you try and get WGT to explain VEM to you and "validate" your "theory".  that is not going to happen either because they are not going to give the keys away to the "kingdom."  

   

• 11BC2 555 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 2:30 PM

  Miantiao:

  You see where this is going now?

  You're confusing yourself by taking items out of context.  Eisegesis does not produce true clarity.  Again, the patents are crystal clear.  My previous post is a stated fact (coming from WGT patent, not my opinion). 

  Again, I say this with zero negative tone or underlying whispers; we're just trying to help you by providing factual information,  similar to Avatar Putting Increments.   There's good information out there if you choose to use it.

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 3:09 PM

  I am not so tech savvy that I could have plotted each of these shots on the green to show the variation and deviation of each, but these are 10 dinged shots under the same conditions on Kiawah Hole 1 with a  very low 1-3mph wind, which is in effect irrelevant.

  I used the standard rock ball because I am not wasting hits on a good ball for this and I just hit as many times as needed to get 10 dinged shots with my best quality wedge which has the highest degree of precision and forgiveness I could buy -  the 100y Mack Daddy.

  distance - roll - and proximity to hole in feet.  the locations around the hole would have looked like a piece of swiss cheese in various locations.  a couple were very close to one another but over all I would say  maybe within a 3 yard or 10 foot circle not 1 -2 feet!  The only way I could use a 1-2 foot circle would require me to exclude dinged shots that fell outside of that but some shots were pretty close to the other ones.  However the dispersion overall is much greater than 1- 2 feet.

  98 - 1 - 5 feet

  99 - 1 - 3.3 right

  99 - 1 - 4.4 short right

  100 - 1 - 3.3 

  100 - 1 - 3.6 short right

  100 - 1 - 2.6 opposite side left of hole

  98 -1 - 7.6 short right

  100 - 1 - 3.2 long

  99 -1 -  2.9 right

  100 -1 - 3.3 right

  some of my miss-dings came just as close as my dinged shots...regardless there is far more than a 1 - 2 foot of variation between all of these dinged shots under the exact same conditions.  

  according to your theory, it is impossible for these balls to be "dispersed" as widely as they are with one shot even going left of the flag making it 3-4 yards further than the shots that predominantly went right of the flag!

  I would be comfortable with a dispersion of all shots within 10 feet of one another and probably half of them within 5 feet of one another but no where near a 1 -2 foot variation.

  Since you are a champion tier player you can do your own test and see how it compares.  I only recorded dinged shots with a standard unlimited play ball and the wind conditions could not have been much better for testing. 

  I set myself up for a 100y approach with my 100y Wedge so I could use the flag as a way to provide a reference for each shot.  

   

• 11BC2 555 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 6:17 PM

  el3n1:

  some of my miss-dings came just as close as my dinged shots...regardless there is far more than a 1 - 2 foot of variation between all of these dinged shots under the exact same conditions.  

  Your numbers look very nice!!  Makes me a bit jealous lol.  I recently had a 7i with a 1mph tail wind and hit the ding.  The ball ended up pin high 24F right of the pin (flat green, no weird rolling).  Just part of the game (which imo is a good thing).

• Miantiao 401 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 6:25 PM

  11BC2:

  we're just trying to help you by providing factual information,  similar to Avatar Putting Increments.

  I  need your help about as much as I need avatar increments...I do pretty well thank you

  .

  11BC2:

  My previous post is a stated fact (coming from WGT patent, not my opinion)

  So are the quotes I provided.

  According to your misunderstanding of the quote you have provided, the software will adjust the sweet spot on a player's current virtual equipment according to recent form. That's garbage right there.

• Miantiao 401 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 6:47 PM

  el3n1:

  while practice mode is not exactly like ranked play you can repeat shots over and over and they would essentially play the same if your are supposedly correct and you are not...

  Tiny differences where a player aims the ball will obviously determine a different outcome where the ball lands, andin turn will affect ball roll on the green

  In practice mode you cant attempt to play the same shot in the same conditions from the same place. However, if you could and did everything exactly the same the outcome discrepancies would indeed be negligible for a player using the top equipment, and would be determined mostly by small differences in aiming point.

  el3n1:

  if there were more truth to your "ramblings" you would be shooting 18-22 under par every single time and it just doesn't happen --you are not posting those scores and you are clearly a "skilled" champion tier player

  I do ok, thank you. I miss the ding more times than not. I score 53-58 quite regularly in the Brackets and ReadyGo - a 55 at PB for the last ReadyGo, and a 53 at St Georges in my second last round in Bracket. I also score regular sub 30 scores for 9 holes. I do pretty well actually, do you?

   

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 8:34 PM

  LoL Sean, ur game is far better than mine.  In fact both of you are better players than me, i just read and researched some of this stuff to try and speed up the learning curve.  I am learning and have reasonable understanding of game, just a lot more work and experience needed.  Also,  i didnt include all the miss hits. I think i had one ding for maybe every 4 or 5 tries.  

  While it wasnt a terrible shot the one left of the flag made no sense compared to all the others...but would likely fall in that range of variation that can happen not just with clubs but could also be typical of VEM type of variance.  Not saying it was vem, but the results could simply reflect standard variance that can be expected.  

  Just like your shot mentioned, i believe jasons first round on Olympic hole 5 (go to about 5:41 and listen until 6:30) came up way short of what he expected for what he knows that club plays normally, that could have been a vem result altering what is more typical for that shot coming up like 8 or 9 yards short.  Dont recall whether it was dinged or not (it was in fact dinged shot with a 16-18mph helping wind).  As you can hear he is quite perplexed and made no sense to him.  

  as for this discussion not sure how else to try and help explain it.  

• Miantiao 401 Posts

  Tue, Feb 20 2018 10:25 PM

  11BC2:

  I recently had a 7i with a 1mph tail wind and hit the ding.  The ball ended up pin high 24F right of the pin (flat green, no weird rolling).  Just part of the game (which imo is a good thing).

  I have never experienced anything like that. That's just ridiculous. You aimed at the pin and landed 24ft right of it?

  I'd need to err with a decent cross breeze for that to happen.