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Mack Daddy VS Cleveland Wedges

• Robert1893 7,729 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 11:47 AM

  Nancy1959:

  This is where I really differ with you....and why I have taken it out of my game altogether as of a couple of years ago when I started to really improve my scores.  The pitch has too much run on it and with the inconsistencies of the greens and where they are really going to start running downhill or uphill make them a very inconsistent shot as compared to the other options.

  
  
  With full backspin, it's simply not true that the pitch shot will run out. Yes, in certain places (for example, if there's a severe downslope after the hole), it can run out. But that's not all that often. In fact, for me, I run into that situation about... well, about 5% of the time. :-) 
  
  I started using the pitch after I watched a video by one of the best players on WGT. He highly recommended using the pitch shot. My point, however, is not that the player I watched is better or knows more than the player you watched. My point is simply that everyone has to find what works for him or her. 
  
  By the way, two last points. First, I never said that the flop shot wasn't effective. So, I'm not sure why you're telling me to look at X player and then argue with that person's stats. I simply disagreed with you about the pitch shot. The flop is also an effective shot. I simply think the pitch is a bit better (overall but not in every situation). 
  
  And I stand by what I wrote. The pitch shot is an extremely consistent and effective shot. But again, that's not to say that other shots, such as the flop, are ineffective. 
  
  
  Second, my short game is just fine.  :-) 

• callaghan159 6,420 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 11:48 AM

  Nancy1959:

  The pitch has too much run on it

   
  
  Not sure how you figure the pitch has to much run on it , but I don't see it that way. I get the pitch 90% of the time less than 3 ft from the hole. The only inconsistencies  I have ever seen with the pitch is when I  pitch from the fringe. This I am still trying to figure out why sometimes it stops on a dime and others it goes by the hole a couple of yards. I think it has something to do with missing the ding on one side or the other of the "G" spot. 

• 11BC2 555 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 11:56 AM

  Nancy1959:

  I learned this from one of the best players in the game (BabeLincoln) who retired from playing about a year and a half ago.  Check out her short game stats and argue with that, LOL!

  The important thing is playing in your comfort zone. If you like to flop go for it. 

  Having said that, pitches will definitely have more hole outs.  The stats of the person you listed appear to be from someone who played mostly Red Tee CC tournaments.  825 Stroke play tournaments entered with only 4 top 10 finishes.  135 CTTH entries with zero top 10'  There's nothing wrong with that but it will skew your putting, approach, and other stats. s.

  To find out how well someone holes out just divide their holed approach shots by total number of rounds.  Babe has .115%.  That's certainly not bad (not at all) but it's nowhere near elite.  UJJBNJK has one of the highest hole out % I've seen at .18% (crazy high).  I'd be very surprised if he preferred the flop over the pitch.

  But again, there's no right or wrong way to play.  You've gotta do it so it works for you, whatever that may be.

• siggipj76 2,989 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 11:57 AM

  the pitch shot is very reliable , its a long distance putter for me when using full bs.

  have 1 pitch in shot pr day in avg.

• Robert1893 7,729 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 11:57 AM

  el3n1:

  Young46 illustrated this in one of his short game shot tutorial videos and based on how he played the shot with his clubs/wedges.

  
  
  I think that's the video I saw that convinced me to go to the pitch more often. I think the first hole I played after watching the video, I had a hole out for birdie. :-) 
  
  I think it was Chambers Bay, 1st hole. 

• Nancy1959 7,377 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 12:14 PM

  el3n1:

  I think most people find what works for them the best.

  I agree with this.  And I'm not saying that someone cannot master the pitch shot by having every green speed memorized (yes, especially the ones where the slope is listed incorrectly)....I was just saying that it is more difficult to master the pitch shot (as is the chip shot) than the other wedge options for the same distance to the cup.  Both have more roll, and therefore more variables.

  This was what I referred to when I mentioned that BabeLincoln's advice radically improved my game.  She was so awesome around the green and I just tried to model what she did (even though I usually cannot equal her results).  

  The same was true with learning how to master punch shots from various distances (especially when in between club lengths) from the fairway.  I previously only used the punch shots when I was in the deep rough.  Now it is very rare for me to not get up and down from any shot 100 yards and closer.

• el3n1 4,505 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 12:19 PM

  11BC2:

  But again, there's no right or wrong way to play.  You've gotta do it so it works for you, whatever that may be.

  Agree as well and sorry I forgot to mention you in my post.  I stumbled across you later than the others and haven't seen as much of your rounds on youtube.  but appreciate the assistance you have also provided!

  Anything that gets you in the hole in fewer strokes on a consistent basis is the best shot to use.   Unfortunately, you won't get away with a foot wedge in WGT or just picking it up and calling it good like some golfers do.  That being said, if you feel your game has plateaued, then try another approach or adjust how you are playing the shot type.  

• Nancy1959 7,377 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 12:35 PM

  11BC2:

  To find out how well someone holes out just divide their holed approach shots by total number of rounds.  Babe has .115%. 

  This is a stat that can be misleading.  BabeLincoln played 99% of her rounds from the back tees, and that makes a difference.  Where do you get that she played "mostly Red Tee CC Tournaments"?  I was in that small CC and nobody even knew that you could create a tournament from anything but the default tees until the final few months.  I know that to be true, because I was there for four years!  I think her 73% of one putts (particularly when she was at only 40% in her first year of play) is a better indicator of just how good her short game became.

  BabeLincoln's "4 top 10 finishes" was because you can count on one hand (or certainly two) the number of WGT tournaments (like Ready Go, etc.) that she entered and all of the others were in CC tournaments, almost all of them from default tees....and those hundreds and hundreds of victories are not included for how many "top 10 finishes" are in one's stats.

  Having countered with that, I'm not disagreeing that the pitch can work very well in someone's arsenal.  I am just saying that this shot is much harder to master than the other options.  The reality is that most of the people using the pitch shot use it with a lot of inconsistencies and as a result have poorer results of either holing it out or getting up and down at the worst.  I've tried it many, many times and found it to be much less consistent for me, so the decision to take it out of my options helped to make me a better player.  And I think the same would be true for many other "average players" like me who are out there.

  
  

• el3n1 4,505 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 12:48 PM

  Nancy1959:

  I was just saying that it is more difficult to master the pitch shot (as is the chip shot) than the other wedge options for the same distance to the cup.  Both have more roll, and therefore more variables.

  It may be true for some Nancy, what I feel others are trying to share is these distances and shots can be as predictable as the punch shot you have also adopted and learned to add to your bag!  

  I did the same thing but I did so out of necessity because I started out with the AVG wedges and they were gapped a little further apart than normal but I discovered I could use the punch shot and it felt like I added 3 more clubs to my bag!  It is a great tool to use.  

  Not having good wedges when I started, I loved the flop shot.  It was my most reliable shot with the beginner wedges and I could often get up and down far more often than I could with the pitch shot.  It took me awhile to start using the pitch shot again because I had just gotten away from it.  After getting better wedges I now use it more often than a flop shot depending on the circumstances.  

  I was curious what wedges you play so I checked.  It surprised me a little that you play 3 different wedges (brands).  Each wedge will play slightly differently than the other so this may also lead to your frustration with pitch shots because they will each play slightly differently with the same ball.  Other players also play various wedges but they just know them extremely well.  They can tell you exactly how far a ball will go at X% because they mapped their clubs out so thoroughly. 

  I am not saying there is anything wrong with playing different types of wedges, but it may also account for why you notice a difference in how your pitch shots play and release on the green and why it has felt harder to find them to be predictable.  It could also be a club/ball combination that you use.  I think many people that use the Cleveland wedges for the pitch shot that stop like a dime or hole out use a top end ball!  The ball in your bag right now has a spin factor of 2.5 which I believe is the same as the L11 Srixon ball.  I believe Robert, Jason (Young46), and Sean (11bc2) all use Nike balls with higher spin factors and I have watched Jason and Sean play some of their rounds on youtube and they are definitely getting predictable results often expecting to hole shots out when or if they miss a green which may only be par 5's where they come up short or run long.  

  The exception to these three would be JayW4862, who plays a Cally ball with similar distance and spin factors as your ball but he plays 3 different wedges and knows them like a glove!  I have learned how to hit and play shots just from watching some of these great players on youtube.  I know it has sped up my learning curve and while I am no where close to their caliber of player, I an play fairly well and progressed to Legend in well under a years time!  I had to focus on unlocking better clubs the last few months to feel I could become competitive again!

• Robert1893 7,729 Posts

  Sat, Feb 17 2018 12:52 PM

  @Nancy
  
  While I feel that we're belaboring the point, I simply don't think you're correct about the pitch. From my experience, it is not harder to master than other shots, such as the flop. My experience was that it was easier to master. 
  
  And no the pitch does not introduce more variables. Indeed, I think it has fewer variables than a shot such as the flop. For one, with the pitch, you virtually eliminate the wind. And with balls with decent spin, the pitch shot (with very good wedges) can stop with very little rollout in most conditions, regardless of the speed of the green. 
  
  I only point this out because others  might read your post and not give the pitch shot a decent try. And they should. 
  
  That's fine that you found something that works better for you. I just think we need to be careful about saying X shot does or does not do Y when that's not a shot you apprently use very often.