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Coaching

Mon, Jun 7 2021 9:56 AM (73 replies)
  • mbcarp99
    1,078 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 10:39 AM

    Mythanatos:
    What if instead of being voice to voice right then. The person shared their hole by hole notes with this other person or maybe they posted them in their CC forum some time prior.

    would their hole by hole notes state what distance to hit and where to aim whilst on the fairway from every position with every different combination of wind speed and elevation, would it also tell them the speed and direction of any putt from every single position on the green. That would be a very long notebook

  • birchi
    1,492 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 10:48 AM

    You just disqualified yourself from further participating in this forum as well, Mark, too bad! 

  • achtbaan
    813 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 11:15 AM

    Mythanatos:

    birchi:
    "Let me explain why scenario X is not cheating by completely ignoring it and talk about the different scenarios Y and Z instead" 

    If you can't see it's the same info being shared in a different form then There is really no point in you participating in any discussion on a forum. It's basic reasoning. I can show it to my 10 year old nephew and they will understand it.

    This is the basic reasoning one would expect from a 10 year old.

    I assume you are older than that and you will probably get it yourself, why live coaching is a totally different matter. If you yourself have no issues with coaching or being coached live, while participating in an event , that is all fine by me. However it reflects only your view on this matter.

    Trying to belittle another person for his view on the matter and basically trying to silence this thread, makes me wonder what your motives are to respond in this way.. (dont answer that, as it was not meant as a question).

    I am hoping this thread continues up to the point where wgt will take a stance, which will satisfy the majority in this matter.

  • mbcarp99
    1,078 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 11:27 AM

    birchi:
    You just disqualified yourself from further participating in this forum as well, Mark, too bad! 

    No worries Simon  :), i'm off to compile some hole by hole notes, i'm starting on Kiawah hole 1, should get to hole 2 by 2022

  • Kenher01
    1,151 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 11:33 AM

    WGT's own Community Guidelines, wouldn't take much to add in Coaching to the section labelled Integrity.

    Coaching may not directly break a rule but it surely is against the etiquette, integrity, sportsmanship, spirit of the game! ?

    I'd hope the majority of fair minded WGT players would agree It's not too much to add this In as a Rule moving forward, might be hard to police but at least some deterrent

     

  • SimonTheBeetle
    3,647 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 12:50 PM

    Voilà! That's what I meant by "civic consciousness and conscience".

    Very well pointed out, Ken.

    Mythanatos:
    Kind of silly to think that (coaching) is cheating.

    With all due respect, I fully disagree. Let me give you an easy example.

    Spreadsheets & Charts = Using a calculator during a math test. You know how to solve the problems by yourself and the calculator will only speed up the process. It's allowed in most countries.

    Coaching = Bringing a friend who is good at math and sitting him right next to you. You don't know a sh** or after writing your answers, you constantly ask the guy "Is this right? Is that right?" then the guy approves or corrects them. This is considered flat absurd cheating no matter where you go.

    I'm sure even your ten-year-old nephew wouldn't have problem understanding this. ;-)

  • Cicero733
    2,312 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 2:13 PM

    This is narrowing down and it seems this is not really about cheating, it’s about advantage and that advantage is gained through information. So, what is being asked for is the elimination of passing along information, knowledge I believe it was tagged above, which means shutting down all forum threads, Twitch and You Tube streams, and any other sources of information. No, you say, information is OK, it’s how information is exchanged. Now you have created a relevancy conundrum. Information, A, is OK, but not when used in combination with B, unless in tandem with C and so on. You will wind up with First, Second, and Third Degree Cheating, Involuntary Cheating, Aggravated Cheating, …not very workable. The issue is some believe that others have an unfair advantage because they have access to information not available to themselves. Instead of looking for a means to obtain that information, since as of now it is permissible, they would rather prohibit the other party from receiving information. I’m not certain such a restriction is feasible. What would you restrict? The information itself, the sharing of information, the timing of information exchanges, the mode of transmission (oral vs written)? How would it be enforced? Signed affidavits, listening devices at a player’s station, third party observers? What are the criteria necessary for proving the illicit sharing of information? A can of worms for sure….

  • NrEighteen
    956 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 2:17 PM

    Kenher01:

    I'd hope the majority of fair minded WGT players would agree It's not too much to add this In as a Rule moving forward, might be hard to police but at least some deterrent

    +1

  • AnaNikolaj
    639 Posts
    Tue, Jun 1 2021 4:33 PM

    Mythanatos:

    birchi:
    "Let me explain why scenario X is not cheating by completely ignoring it and talk about the different scenarios Y and Z instead" 

    If you can't see it's the same info being shared in a different form then There is really no point in you participating in any discussion on a forum. It's basic reasoning. I can show it to my 10 year old nephew and they will understand it.

     

    That's just idiotic. Unless you can produce notes for every possible wind direction and strength, calculated for every single spot on the hole map, combined with notes for every spot on the green and for every green speed, there's no equating giving someone notes with direct in-game input into what they should do on each and every shot. And if a 10 year old would think that's the same, his teacher needs to get fired.

     

    Direct in-game coaching should be labeled as cheating and banned. A few member organised comps, like the WC did that and if anyone gets caught giving or taking advice during a stream, they'd get DQd on the spot. And rightly so. Although not much can be done on preventing screen sharing and coaching on Discord without the public stream. There have been a number of times, when some rounds were suspicious, when players from clubs with some "elite" individuals would suddenly play a very important match waaaaaay above their usual skill set. But since it couldn't be proved, there was no point in discussing it openly.

     

    Anyway, I find these practices despicable and these players pathetic. Same goes for those who think that's ok.

     

    @Cicero  Following directions is easy for any "lesser" player, when there's a voice telling you "just an inch to the left". All that player needs to do is to follow directions and click the mouse. In no way does it mean he's understanding why he needs to put the marker in a certain spot and in no way does this mean he's capable of playing well enough by himself. 

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