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Coaching

Mon, Jun 7 2021 9:56 AM (73 replies)
  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 4:43 AM

    giraldin:

    Perfect Dodgyputter, when I say don't affect my CC, friends, or myself, I don't mean it hasn't happened already. But what can we do? I think nothing, so if it is proven that coaching exists, I think it is better to forget it, and make the best of this game, until wgt gets down to it and tries to solve it in the best possible way.


    Maybe you are right in your approach to the game but in the meantime it can do no harm if those of us that don't like it tell them we know about it, as they do, and think it's wrong. If we do that wgt may do something but if we just completely ignore it they will too.

    As to the "best possible way" it's simple, they make clear it's against the rules, any question of enforcement can be looked at after.

  • BPeterson8256
    2,914 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 5:32 AM

    DodgyPutter:

    BPeterson8256:
    The bottom two spots in an eTour event pay out $250 each.

    Very sorry about that they did say $1,000 on one I was watching, this one:

    must have been the finals.  Apologies again for the inaccuracy.

    No apologies needed. And yes, I think it is more for the championship. The event I was in was a $10,000 purse. I think the championship is $50,000. And if the payout is the same, then the championship would be $1,250 for last place. Although you have to go through a regular event to get into the championship. So $250 remains the minimum for getting through a bracket.

    Another point... WGT has virtually nothing to do with the eTour. Although WGT handles the qualifier and the brackets, everything after that is handled by DreamHack. They are the ones that make the rules. When playing after the brackets, you are on video and it is against the rules to even touch your phone. They won't even let you use the calculator on it. 

    So if coaching is against the eTour rules, my guess is that DreamHack would be a lot more interested in knowing about the cheaters than WGT. Although where WGT handles the qualifier and bracket, I doubt they could do anything to prevent the cheaters from cheating. And there's the rub. 

    I don't have any answers to this problem. I'm just passing on a couple details I'm aware of with the issue.

    On a final note... Whether it's cheating or not, I will never understand why anyone would want to win knowing that they didn't actually win themselves. Even in the rare events that are for $$$ I just don't get it. I love competition! I love competing in any kind of sport. I will never understand the mentality of being such a loser, that you want the recognition, knowing you not only don't deserve it, but you didn't even compete. You stole it from someone more deserving.

  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 6:33 AM

    BPeterson8256:
    Another point... WGT has virtually nothing to do with the eTour. Although WGT handles the qualifier and the brackets, everything after that is handled by DreamHack. They are the ones that make the rules. When playing after the brackets, you are on video and it is against the rules to even touch your phone. They won't even let you use the calculator on it. 

    That's what I thought.  It is the qualifying brackets we're primarily talking about and I think it's wgt's rules that apply in these.  Dreamhack just want wgt to deliver them eight players for each Event.

    The rules in the Event itself look well thought out and strong and I shouldn't think there's anything untoward going on at that stage.

    BPeterson8256:
    So if coaching is against the eTour rules, my guess is that DreamHack would be a lot more interested in knowing about the cheaters than WGT.
    .

    I'm not sure the word coaching is used in the rules but collusion features prominently.  I believe this has been reported to Dreamhack, both by players and wgt.  Well I think wgt said they would discuss this with Dreamhack anyway.  

    There's nothing I could add to the rest of the post except to say yet again (sorry) that if a rule is needed it should be put in place, enforcement comes after. E-Tour admit to no means of enforcement but still implement rules:

    • Any use of computer-based software such as, but not limited to, Microsoft Excel, spreadsheets, digital calculator, phone, etc. are prohibited, however we have no practical way of checking if players oblige. We ask for good faith and fair-play towards players, WGT and the European eTour.
  • JSmithers
    1,266 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 8:32 AM

    Since this is still being hashed out I figure why not chime in.  

    It was me who told this player that i liked his shot selection.  I confirmed what he wanted to hit.  Since then I have fielded nasty messages and my CC has had many players accused of cheating since this incident.  What I say doesn't seem to matter and the accusations continue to get worse as "experienced players" cannot believe they can be beat by someone who hasn't played as long as them.  I watched a streamed match on twitch a week ago where a legend from my club played a decent round of 60 at oakmont and was accused of cheating while making half grid 9 footers.  Because that is just insanity to believe he could make that putt.  

    On to the coaching thing... yes there are no rules against it.  Yes it happens more than anyone in here thinks it does.   I've seen people who average mid 60s shoot 55 in world cup matches.. but to create a witch hunt on a video game because you are upset you shot 58 in easy conditions at congressional and lost?? Thats just not good enough in some matches.  Also as we all know once the ball starts rolling the sheep will join.  Anyone who has come to me to have a conversation I have greeted with a smile and talked to.  At the end of the day we are required to play our own round.  Should there be a caddy in golf?  Thats not for me to determine.  Since this isolated incident not a single person has said a word during another players round.  But yet there are certain individuals who throw tantrums any time they get beat or a friend gets beat.  The best part being that some of these "certain individuals" have messaged me privately asking for help and numbers.  How much info myself and Young46 have given away on live streams on twitch is borderline ridiculous.  hindsight being 20/20 I would have never given 1 piece of advice had I known the witch hunt that would follow.   

     

    I've basically stopped streaming and the enjoyment for the live stream round has been lost for me due to this stuff.  The constant harassment and snarky comments have become unbearable.  Maybe this will help some people understand some things.  

  • BPeterson8256
    2,914 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 9:03 AM

    JSmithers:

    Since this is still being hashed out I figure why not chime in.  

    As the curious type, I think it's cool you chimed in. I had no idea who was being talked about or what the exact situation was.

    From a personal point of view, I really don't care about this. I find it hard to believe the problem is wide spread. I'm usually an underdog in these tournaments and I would never accept help, so I always assume most players are the same. I would like to know if my opponent is using a caddy, but that is just because I like to know who I'm playing and what I'm up against.

    Cheers

  • Dharla
    316 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 10:48 AM

    :

  • achtbaan
    813 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 2:17 PM

    JSmithers:

    Since this is still being hashed out I figure why not chime in.  

    It was me who told this player that i liked his shot selection.  I confirmed what he wanted to hit.  Since then I have fielded nasty messages and my CC has had many players accused of cheating since this incident.  What I say doesn't seem to matter and the accusations continue to get worse as "experienced players" cannot believe they can be beat by someone who hasn't played as long as them.  I watched a streamed match on twitch a week ago where a legend from my club played a decent round of 60 at oakmont and was accused of cheating while making half grid 9 footers.  Because that is just insanity to believe he could make that putt.  

    On to the coaching thing... yes there are no rules against it.  Yes it happens more than anyone in here thinks it does.   I've seen people who average mid 60s shoot 55 in world cup matches.. but to create a witch hunt on a video game because you are upset you shot 58 in easy conditions at congressional and lost?? Thats just not good enough in some matches.  Also as we all know once the ball starts rolling the sheep will join.  Anyone who has come to me to have a conversation I have greeted with a smile and talked to.  At the end of the day we are required to play our own round.  Should there be a caddy in golf?  Thats not for me to determine.  Since this isolated incident not a single person has said a word during another players round.  But yet there are certain individuals who throw tantrums any time they get beat or a friend gets beat.  The best part being that some of these "certain individuals" have messaged me privately asking for help and numbers.  How much info myself and Young46 have given away on live streams on twitch is borderline ridiculous.  hindsight being 20/20 I would have never given 1 piece of advice had I known the witch hunt that would follow.   

     

    I've basically stopped streaming and the enjoyment for the live stream round has been lost for me due to this stuff.  The constant harassment and snarky comments have become unbearable.  Maybe this will help some people understand some things.  

    I have no comment about the first section in your post.( Apart from one thing, that i will mention a bit later ).

    On the second part , the reason this thread excists , is live coaching. You said it yourself : On to the coaching thing... yes there are no rules against it.  Yes it happens more than anyone in here thinks it does. And i think its that, what this thread is trying to address.

    Which in my opinion is a good thing, seeking to have wgt put a stop to it from  happening.

    Most other things mentioned by you, are revolving about your cc members taking a lot of heat during their games. Well, harassment and snarky comments, havent been a stranger to some of your members either, so no need to be so one sided about that. 

    Even you yourself could not resist to make snarky comments in your post.

    from section 1 ,  as "experienced players" cannot believe, why not just , as experienced players cannot believe?

    from section 2 ,   Also as we all know once the ball starts rolling the sheep will join.  Really ??? SHEEP . People on wgt expressing their concerns in a thread on the forum?.

    I never had any issue with you personally, certainly not looking to create one now.

    I kinda hope , that with my response i can get you to back up this thread , by saying live coaching does not belong on wgt . Wgt should deem it as cheating.


  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 3:22 PM

    JSmithers:
    On to the coaching thing... yes there are no rules against it.  Yes it happens more than anyone in here thinks it does.   I've seen people who average mid 60s shoot 55 in world cup matches.. but to create a witch hunt on a video game because you are upset you shot 58 in easy conditions at congressional and lost??

    I know in general, and in particular the last part of, your reply isn't directed at me but still. It's over two years since I posted in the WC thread that screen sharing shouldn't be allowed, actually not even that:  

    The opponent should always be given the choice, not that I'm suggesting they weren't tonight.

    All captains should be told this is allowed.

    For which I was told I was a troublemaker etc etc. So when your video presented evidence of screen sharing and coaching I wanted to try again to say there should be a rule against this.  Apparently in the cases I highlighted in the WC the reason was so that the games could be streamed, what was the reason here?  This was a competition you were taking part in and ultimately won (I think).

    So for me the "witch hunt" isn't about you it's about the issue of coaching and how screen sharing makes this easy to do or, in reality, almost impossible not to do.

    I tend to agree that there aren't specific rules about coaching when it's wgt's rules that count and that probably includes the E-Tour qualifying brackets.  I will say there should be rules to say it's not allowed, do you have any thoughts on that?

    JSmithers:
    At the end of the day we are required to play our own round.  Should there be a caddy in golf?  Thats not for me to determine.

    Not referring to the single incident but in general, do you think having possibly the best player in the game just now telling you where to aim, how to hit and with what is playing your own round? 

    Yes there should is a caddy in professional golf but that's not what this computer game is.  In this game we are all given the same caddy; it carries the clubs around for us and before most shot gives us the wrong one :-)  annoying sometimes but the same for everyone.  Having someone like you to instruct us isn't available to everyone and therefor isn't fair.  Maybe it isn't for you to determine but you are allowed an opinion, do you think coaching should be allowed?

    JSmithers:
    I've basically stopped streaming and the enjoyment for the live stream round has been lost for me due to this stuff.  The constant harassment and snarky comments have become unbearable.  Maybe this will help some people understand some things.  

    I'm sorry you feel that way but this thread isn't meant to be harassment of you it's trying to get wgt to term something some of us feel is cheating accordingly.  Most of the harassment I saw was on peoples status and I thought you gave as good as you got.  I'm not sure what there is to understand, I think you're saying you only did this on the approach that happened to be recorded, as it appeared you both went off to another room afterwards it's impossible to argue.

    I've always thought you were ok, sensible forum posts and setting up that tournament for people to enjoy, even just scoring that must be lots of work.  I wasn't looking to pick on you personally.   I realise that's probably of no interest to you but it's true all the same.

     

     

  • giraldin
    3,712 Posts
    Thu, Jun 3 2021 3:53 PM

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