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Coaching

• Slimjim001 1,053 Posts

  Thu, Jun 3 2021 4:48 PM

  I happened to be watching one of these live events not long ago (Alt. Shot). I was especially interested in one particular match so when it started, I clicked off the WGT live stream and clicked onto the private Twitch stream of one of the players. I was interested in hearing his comments during play. As the match progressed, I was surprised at the coaching that was going on. The player being coached was a very accomplished golfer in his own right. I doubt he needed the help but he went along with it. I thought to myself what an insult it would be if it was me in that match and being coached like that. My take away was that I lost a lot of respect for both players, one (the coach) of which I had admined for a long time. I don't know if the coaching made difference but they did win but on my score card, they both lost.

• SimonTheBeetle 3,647 Posts

  Thu, Jun 3 2021 6:27 PM

  Wow... everyone's so nice and "diplomatic". LOL Alright, here is my take.

  JSmithers:

  Since then I have fielded nasty messages and my CC has had many players accused of cheating since this incident.

  JSmithers:

  but to create a witch hunt on a video game because you are upset you shot 58 in easy conditions at congressional and lost?

  JSmithers:

  But yet there are certain individuals who throw tantrums any time they get beat or a friend gets beat.

  Oh, I've seen worse in the past! A witch hunt started by a bunch of f***tards back then when their friends got beat and the accusee was suddenly a red-tee playing cheater. Well, at least, one had balls to step up and apologize, but other two eunuches just vanished.

  BIG difference though? The guy was innocent 4 years ago, and what you (guys) are doing is plain cheap cheating no matter what the rules say, no matter how you look at it!

  JSmithers:

  The best part being that some of these "certain individuals" have messaged me privately asking for help and numbers.  How much info myself and Young46 have given away on live streams on twitch is borderline ridiculous.

  Boy... good thing (and damned proud) that I'm not a "f***stain who asked for help in the past"* to you two. (* This isn't my words. It's gotta sound real familiar to someone.)

  JSmithers:

  I've basically stopped streaming and the enjoyment for the live stream round has been lost for me due to this stuff.  The constant harassment and snarky comments have become unbearable.

  Welcome to the club. That's how I stopped interacting with people the way I used to. And when I started to speak out again in the forums after that incident, some brainless p*t*sse labelled me being "aggressive all the time". When an individual behaves in a certain way, there's a reason behind it.

  From now on, you'll have that dirty after-taste no matter how hard you try to enjoy it. Again... the only difference is your case is NOT an accusation, it's a fact, PERIOD.

• PRIESTESS 10,721 Posts

  Fri, Jun 4 2021 1:13 AM

  DodgyPutter:

  There’s a video doing the rounds, someone playing their e-tour round and screen sharing.  Let's make the person playing A and the person screen sharing with them B, the conversation goes:

  
  

  B: Right there I like that wind aim and full power with an eight iron.

  
  

  A: Full back or take a tick off?

  
  

  B: I like that, a tick off full. 

  
  

  I missed off the players names and the video as I didn’t think it fair to single them out as I believe this to be widespread. I think It's been happening for years, especially in the major and team competitions.

  
  

  The difference here? And why don’t I report it rather than winge in the forum?

  
  

  This has been reported to WGT and the reply was that the player (A) took the shot so it’s fine. I believe Champ has said on another occasion “as long as it’s the players hand on the mouse”  That can only mean everyone is allowed to do this, which I think is wrong.  The game surely has to be more than a hit the ding competition.

  
  

  If it is allowed for someone to do this is it also allowed for the advisor to be paid for their time?

  
  

  When I complained about this before the response was, apart from the fact I was a troublemaker and other incomprehensible stuff, that there was no point in banning it as that would be unenforceable.  Should the possibility of enforcing it even be part of the conversation?  As things stand WGT say this is not cheating but if WGT make it against the rules it is, simple as that.  If people then do it they are cheating, that alone may discourage some and there will be the occasional falling out where more will come to light etc etc.  A short clock would also help.

  
  

  Whatever, WGT should tell everyone if they are allowed this coaching.

  
  

  To finish where this started, from the E-Tour rules 

  
  

  To enter an eTour tournament, log on at either the Platform at www.wgt.com/etour/, at www.etour.gg, on the Desktop Game or on the Mobile Game and register to enter the tournament and then play and complete at least one round of 18-hole stroke play.

  1. Use of multiple email addresses or multiple WGT user accounts to enter is prohibited.

  2. To enter, the registered user of designated WGT user account must personally play the Game or the entry will be disqualified.

  3. Players may not allow any third party to play the game in a Qualification using their WGT user account.

   

   

  So there it is “play the Game” simply means press the mouse :-((

  
  

  So lets say Player B helps Player A via Skype? Only them 2 know about it right?  Or even through private Discord messages?  You brought this out because it was evident and blatant but what about  Skype and Discord is that any different? Obviously not live streamed but how many use this in any games involving credits? Or games worth something to the individual.

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Fri, Jun 4 2021 2:22 AM

  PRIESTESS:

  So lets say Player B helps Player A via Skype? Only them 2 know about it right?  Or even through private Discord messages?  You brought this out because it was evident and blatant but what about  Skype and Discord is that any different? Obviously not live streamed but how many use this in any games involving credits? Or games worth something to the individual.

  I think coaching is wrong, and should be against the rules, whatever platform and competition.

  One difference may be that players at the level of those doing this probably wouldn't do it in credit tournaments as credits aren't much good to them unless they're selling them, directly or indirectly (gifting to players who pay for something I suppose may work).  This was for real money.

  I think coaching like this is wrong however it's done and it's so widespread.  Last night the wgt site recommended I watched this person, I'd never heard of them and have forgotten their name already, streaming.  They were doing that target thing and people in the chat were saying 4I fbs etc  and he was following the suggestions.  I didn't see any real harm in it as it didn't affect other players.  Coaching in credit or cash tournaments very much does.  If they get someone through a round of a bracket someone goes out, a single saved shot in a rg may cost numerous others credits.

  Maybe that's the thing, why there's not the slightest effort to stop it or even say it's wrong, it doesn't affect wgt.  They get their eight qualifiers for Dreamhack, they get their cut of rg entries etc, it only impacts badly on the players not doing it.

  As to how to stop it, I don't know if that's possible.  WGT could make it a little more difficult by using clocks, for example.

  I get the feeling I'm wittering on and not addressing the point you want answered, it's not deliberate :-(

• Yiannis1970 3,309 Posts

  Fri, Jun 4 2021 2:45 AM

  Coaching is a good thing. Let me tell you how we are doing it on TCC....

  A game with Bert:

   

  - Bert, hit that on the approach.

  - No, it's not right.

  - Bert, aim there for this wind.

  - No, i will play more.

  - Bert, this putt breaks more, aim 2 grids at least.

  - No, i will aim 1,99 grids.

  - Bert, you are an A$$hole!!!

  - You are a lousy coach!! You are fired!!

   

   

  End of coaching in TCC.

• 3,712 Posts

  Fri, Jun 4 2021 3:10 AM

  To be more exact with reality, Bert did not call A$$HOLE to Yiannis ............. Rather, this is what happened

  
  

• JSmithers 1,266 Posts

  Fri, Jun 4 2021 7:45 AM

  The after taste will go away.  I have the ability to move on from things.  We are all human and everyone makes mistakes along their journey.  The toxicity of some people is what has left the bad taste.  

  "What you guys are doing is just plain cheap cheating no matter what the rules say" that is an interesting way to enforce your personal opinion over the actual rules in place.  Now I've addressed this many times.  First insuating that this is a common practice done daily.  Which is so far from correct.  Second saying that ones personal opinion is above the actual written out rules.  Now is it morally wrong?  Yes it definitely crosses some moral lines.  

  I helped a friend.  I'm not ashamed of it.  Should I have? No. Did I? Yes I did.  If that is the thing people think of when they think of me then I guess they don't know me very well.  

  The help given to people in the past is what it is.  Just interesting to see how quick some of the people can turn on you.  As to the witch hunt I spoke of. When a video is sent to countless people to try and cause some type of harm to an individual.   When I received a call at 2am when I'm holding my sick child over a video game... that's when I became angry.  I personally can handle the name calling.  The talking behind my back.  The private chats speaking negatively about me.  But when it bleeds into my personal life is when it becomes unacceptable.   When my family is being spoken of is when it becomes unacceptable.   

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Fri, Jun 4 2021 12:02 PM

  I have not wished any ill will towards anyone - I know I did not disclose any names - but I do believe actions can have consequences - and just because this information finally came out publicly does not put those seeking for the rules or spirit of the game to be upheld - at fault.

  Golf is a game of integrity and sportsmanship and those are rules and expectations to be followed - you can't claim a moral line was crossed and suggest no rule was broken simply because the word "coaching" was not specifically given.  

  The act of coaching and what it does during a live competition to the integrity and spirit of fair play does violate some of those rules that are given without using the word "coaching".

  If not- where are the coaches during the finals in all these events?  They are not there, they are not allowed because it violates the rules and how the event is suppose to be played.  

  None of this was a witch hunt either - witch hunts were based on unfounded and fabricated claims that led to people dying.  No one is being killed here, and there was direct proof that served as the basis for raising a concern regarding fair play and the rules as the event was intended to be played.

  -- You have made a huge step by acknowledging what you have and that is commendable and I for one appreciate it.  That alone also takes integrity and I hope will go a long way to helping this issue be addressed.

  I also believe you to be a leader in the community - and reminded me of a scene from a movie... keep this in mind moving forward - because people will either follow your example down a path of who can break rules without getting caught or they will rise to a higher level and elevate everyone's gaming experience.

  ---Attitude (and behavior) reflects leadership captain

  
  

• SimonTheBeetle 3,647 Posts

  Fri, Jun 4 2021 2:27 PM

  ↑↑ Very well said , Ed! ↑↑

  JSmithers:

  "What you guys are doing is just plain cheap cheating no matter what the rules say" that is an interesting way to enforce your personal opinion over the actual rules in place. 

  No, it's called general consensus. Maybe I should've said "What you guys are doing is just plain cheap cheating although the rules do not specify it", but the essence is the same so do not try to play upon words.

  Wanna help a friend? Fine! Who doesn't? But do it off the ring, not on the ring! Train your man at your gym. Don't go up on the ring with your boxer and throw punches to the opponent at the same time!

  Just use your common sense.

  JSmithers:

  I personally can handle the name calling.  The talking behind my back.  The private chats speaking negatively about me.  But when it bleeds into my personal life is when it becomes unacceptable.   When my family is being spoken of is when it becomes unacceptable.   

  I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Trust me. I know exactly how you feel. Been there.

  Judging by your post, you sound like a pretty reasonable man. A reasonable man like you doing such a thing is what puzzles me even more.