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Changes to the FAQ - Averages/Tier

• muttsnutts69 283 Posts

  Thu, Nov 15 2012 6:51 PM

  That is very very funny Storm Tiger.

  A big slap in the face with  a great big wet sllmey haddock if ever I saw one.

  great stuff. and well done U and PUHOLINO

  

• MBaggese 15,375 Posts

  Thu, Nov 15 2012 7:11 PM

  WGTpizza:

  The distinction I want to make is that this system is not doing this. It is finding players who ARE displaying skill levels higher than their average denotes, and is making adjustments to their tier to compensate.

   

  One thing to note here, say a Pro beats a Legend in MP...say the Legend is having an off day and only makes one bird...Say the Pro makes two birds and wins the match.

   

  Yes, in that particular instance the Pro displayed a higher skill level than the legend, but in reality, said legend was not playing well...

   

    IMO, the Pro should not have his average lowered, etc...

   

  Just some random thoughts.

   

  The only way to really do it properly, would be to use MLB's WAR system..(yes, I know there are 100's of inputs that are factored in for WAR)...but maybe -eventually- WGT can add more parameters to said sandbagging deterrent.

   

  For starters, non-challenge (no credits) games should NOT be factored in...seems that would be an easy one to strike from the occasion?

• PUHOLINO 1,189 Posts

  Thu, Nov 15 2012 7:52 PM

  WGTpizza:

  To this I will say what I have said in other threads:

  Show me someone who claims they have been moved up only be winning a few MP games, and I will investigate the matter.

  Not doubting your claim, it just is contrary to what I know about this feature, and if true, would require investigation.

   

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

   

  I want to thank my dear friend Stormy for sacrificing his masterdome for the community. I only had to sacrifice my completion %, which is now down to 77, but I'll get it back up again soon.

  I guess I lied when I said it'll only take 5 disconnects/forfeits, it actually took 6. First 2 were on 26th of October, when his 69+ avg dropped to 66 with 2 forfeits. We stopped then, cause I hoped it would be proof enough that something is flawed, without actually turning him into a TM. We both posted this evidence in the "avgs dropping like rocks thread". After that he played 20 ranked rounds, which dropped his avg by further 0,3 strokes (compared to 3 full strokes for my 2 forfeits). So tonight I forfeited 4 more games and he's now a proud TM with a 62,9 avg.

  All 6 matches ended with me forfeiting before I even drove off the 1st tee, without any skill being shown. His MP record shows these were the only 6 wins against a higher tier of his career. As you can clearly see from his scores, he is not a sandbagger of any sort.

  It's these sort of flaws we've been screaming about all this time. Granted, my forfeits were intentional, but how many times do you think legends simply lose connection or have a bug when they play lower tiers. And how this affects them now. It's not right that people's skill is being assesed by MP wins this way, a bad day or a bad connection of a higher ranked player should not affect other's tier and avg.

  I'm sorry we needed to prove this to such an extent, I was hoping it wouldn't be necessary. But I can understand your point of view, Mr. Pizza. You were told certain things from upstairs, which turned out not to be true. I even understand your scepticism when the community started pointing them out. People usually have to trust their employers. However, it should be obvious by now that the community is mostly here to help and most of us have a pretty good grasp of what's going on, so try having a little more faith in us. Most of us are only here to help, which, I'm guessing, is what you're trying to do as well.

  So I hope you'll be able to convey the message forward and fix this aspect of the new system. I'm sure the rest of it works just fine, it's mostly the free scored MPs that are a mess.

   

  P.S.: I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt in believing that you didn't know these things before and the tech department gave you wrong info. So imagine what my sentiment will be the next time I see »Nobody will be accidentally tiered up because of this new feature!« written anywhere.

   

• Infinito3010 3,689 Posts

  Thu, Nov 15 2012 11:26 PM

  WGTpizza:

  No. Only Tier and, consequently, Average is affected by this system.

  Then shouldn't their xp points be adjusted as well.

• Shadowmike 14 Posts

  Fri, Nov 16 2012 3:39 AM

  WGTpizza:

  To this I will say what I have said in other threads:

  Show me someone who claims they have been moved up only be winning a few MP games, and I will investigate the matter.

  Not doubting your claim, it just is contrary to what I know about this feature, and if true, would require investigation.

   

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

  Shadowmike:

  Hi WGTpizza

   

  My problem with this anti sandbagging system is that I really do believe that it has moved me up too fast.

  ·         I had played 25 games as a Tour Pro at level 47 – my average was 70, with only two games being below the 67 average understood to be Master Tier.

  ·         I play one match play against a new (struggling to cope with longer tee’s) Master and my average is bumped to 67.2

  ·         I play one more game as TP and score 32 – my average goes to 66.xx and I’m promoted.

   

  How have I constantly displayed anything like Master level skill.

  I’m now stuck in a tier that I don’t belong in with equipment not up to the job and I cannot get better gear because I’m a dozen levels below minimum requirements.

   

  Any suggestions?

   

  Well I did what you asked and have you investigated? Maybe or maybe not, but you certainly didn't reply directly. What you did say a few posts later was that I was complaining unjustly and that I don't need good gear for this new level. 

   

  I reiterate and expand my argument 

  • I never play "credit" games out of principle.
  • I have only entered a few tournys and the stats are - payed out 152c in fees, won 38c
  • My average was 70 and TWO games put it below 67 (one was a MP)
  • I have never thrown a game to keep stats down
  • I have never disconnected to keep stats down
  • I dont used practice mode to keep my stats down (that is cheating) 

  And inspite of all this you label me a Sandbagger and a cheat.

  Well thanks very much....

  I look forward to your reply. I would like to believe that I will get one but I doubt it.

• Edbeau 98 Posts

  Fri, Nov 16 2012 10:40 AM

  PUHOLINO, 

  All this is good information!

  BUT it seems everyone is taking a fun, relatively inexpensive game to serious.  

  I know I have only been involved in the WGT world for less than a year, but I love the format and I see a lot of misguided finger pointing at Pizza & WGT, It seems everyone is shooting the messenger when IMO he is our mediator and does take all information serious.

  It is not a perfect system but what is? He follows up! He responds to the best of his ability without jeopardizing or divulging pertain ant information that will enhance the sand baggers and cheats the ability to further manipulate the system to their advantage.

  These "what I call" SCABS are the problem and apparently the fix is a complex tweek of the system "I have no idea,,, not a computer guru" but I am sure it will come eventually.

  I guess these "SCABS" have a need to beat their chest or had a poor up bringing to lower themselves to being a cheat. 

  I play for fun, not credits, I play my CC tourneys, Stroke play tourneys and an occasional MP setup specifically for my tier "MASTER" heck I look forward to becoming TM I love the challenge of defeating myself or the course simply to beat my own chest and enjoy seeing players that I do play in MP make awesome shots, putts drives, I do not care if I was to be beat by a HACK, I simply enjoyed the game for what it is FUN, and yes I do spend money to have the best equipment but that is simply my choice no one forces me too.... I can't imagine finding another activity that is as inexpensive and enjoyable as this game. 

   

  Thanks Pizza & WGT

  Keep up the good work and thanks for the game. 

• StormTigers 264 Posts

  Fri, Nov 16 2012 3:06 PM

  Edbeau:

  PUHOLINO, 

  All this is good information!

  BUT it seems everyone is taking a fun, relatively inexpensive game to serious.  

  I know I have only been involved in the WGT world for less than a year, but I love the format and I see a lot of misguided finger pointing at Pizza & WGT, It seems everyone is shooting the messenger when IMO he is our mediator and does take all information serious.

  HI Edbeau

  It's not about ganging up on Pizza even so it may seem so. Pizza is one of few who interact with the community on WGT's behalf.

  The point was raised about there being a problem with averages being decreased abnormally when connection failure's happened. People had reported it but the advice they were receiving was that no that didn;t happen.

  Then it was realised yes it did happen and poor Pizza, being the "interface", had to cop it on the chin. But they told him that Tier promotion would not occur because of such average adjustments.

  Yes and as you saw in my post it does happen I got promoted artificially ! So once again Pizza as the "interface" has to cop it again !  It's not about him personally that people are peeved about it's the fact that it is the end-users , the one's who play day in day out and in some cases spend their hard earned dollars , are entitled to expect a level of support and ability to highlight such "bugs" and WGT as the supplier of services to investigate.  But when Pizza get's misinformed by whomever he reports to that something can't happen BUT it does, it is only logical to expect a bit of textual slanging to occur.

  As a software person (not games mind you) of 20+ years experience there should be a screen to report bugs documenting the where why and wherefores and someone who looks at them and investigates. AND MORE IMPORTANT replies on a regular basis.

  This forum is littered with bug reports. There is a section for reporting things but text messages don't quite crack it. And more importantly WGT doesn't always reply nor keep the user community involved in a timely fashion.

  Like you mate I play for the enjoyment. But I get frustrated by seemingly ridiculous changes that see me hitting the ball straight one day on a particular hole with a tailwind and the next day under same conditions the damn ball drops 30 foot short or flys left as if I mishit it. It's been happening a lot lately and there are a few holes it is totally predictable now that you can't shoot at the flag under any circumstance. 

  The only people that can answer that is WGT  but if you search such complaints you rarely see a satisfactory explanation if any or confirmation and acknowledgement !

  That's all - I've said enough (again). Hope to maybe catch you online for a game one day edbeau !

   

  Cheers

• WGTpizza 1,656 Posts

  Fri, Nov 16 2012 3:47 PM

  Edbeau:

  Thanks Pizza & WGT

  Keep up the good work and thanks for the game. 

  Thanks Edbeau, and PUHOLINO, for conveying your messages in a classy manner. This isn't just a catch phrase, it's how you remain a welcomed member of the WGT community :)

  Yes, at times it seems like the community is ganging up on me, but I understand that being nearly the only WGT staff member who dives in to these touchy subjects means that I will get feedback from all sides.

  With that being said, it's important to note that humans generally don't go out of their way to tell a company they are doing a good thing.

  I appreciate all of the feedback, good and bad, but the sentiment described by Edbeau is a very important one: have fun. If you are not having fun playing WGT, you are doing it wrong. We offer a way for people to spend their free time playing Golf in a virtual environment, where you can meet new people, make friends (and inevitably enemies) and have a good time. 

  We will continue to take sandbagging, or any other aspect of our game that provides a negative experience very seriously, and we will continue to develop new ways to combat them. My next sentence may come as a shocker, brace yourselves:

  WGT will NEVER be able to please everyone.

  I know, I know: "What is WGTpizza doing? Career suicide?!" Well folks, it's the truth. Let's keep this in mind while we play the game we all love and try to keep an optimistic view of the direction the company is going, give proper feedback and hope for the best. This is all any of us can do. If this recognition of lack of control, or patience to see where the company goes is not acceptable for you, then it sounds like you are not having fun, which brings me back to one of my previous points: If you are not having fun, you are wasting your time spent here.

   

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

• WGTpizza 1,656 Posts

  Fri, Nov 16 2012 4:00 PM

  PUHOLINO:

  P.S.: I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt in believing that you didn't know these things before and the tech department gave you wrong info

  Thanks for the post, PUHOLINO

  This sentence is true, but with a minor adjustment - it's not that the "tech department" gave me the wrong information.

  Like any of our features, we won't truly know the effectiveness until it is released. We had a plan with this feature, to accomplish exactly what I have been saying since it's release. I have also said, since it's release, that we would be constantly monitoring and evaluating it's performance, and we will make changes wherever necessary.

  Your feedback over the past few weeks have been paramount to our analysis. I have recently learned that WGT will be making changes to this feature, in the near future. More info on this will be given during the Chat with MisterWGT on 11/20

  I appreciate your diligence, and your patience while you helped me understand the community's message, PUHOLINO.

  I hope everyone paid attention to this feature :)  This is EXACTLY how we have released features in the past, and it's how we will be rolling out features down the line: develop, test, launch, collect feedback, adjust, repeat the last two steps until optimal.

  This process takes time, so patience is requested. It can be difficult at times when you think a business is not moving at the speed you expect it to, but that's where our credibility comes in to play, I suppose. When we tell you we are working on it as fast as we can, it lies on the individual player to ask themselves: "Do I believe what this company is telling me?" and make a decision based on that answer. I am not WGT PR, I do not get paid if more people stay or less people leave, I'm just here to facilitate communication between WGT and it's community, both ways.

  I can't convince you to believe in WGT, I can only offer the truth, as I know it, so that you can make educated decisions. At the end of the day, I'm here to help, and I have found that a majority of our players hold the same disposition :)

   

  Stay classy,

  -WGTpizza

• chris5214 1,937 Posts

  Fri, Nov 16 2012 4:52 PM

  WGTpizza:

  With that being said, it's important to note that humans generally don't go out of their way to tell a company they are doing a good thing.

  WGT will NEVER be able to please everyone.

  this is very true .. people don't often commend on what's goin' right, since it's their expectation for things to go right .. 

  i've learned that the opposite of dissatisfaction is not satisfaction .. in my experience it goes something like this:     dissatisfaction ----> neutral (expectation) ----> satisfaction

  however vocal and often overly critical we all may come across, it's all for the love of the game ..

  some are eloquent in voicing their concerns & opinions (probably the better way of doin' things); others like myself tend to be more blunt & direct ..

  as i've said Pizza, the job must sometimes seem thankless, but i, and i'm sure most others, appreciate the regular feedback & involvement with the community .. also appreciated is the fact that this issue has been brought to the attention of the brass at WGT and some manner of resolution will be forthcoming ..

  i thank u for your role in this Mr P ..