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New Tier? Make some changes first....

Tue, Dec 16 2014 9:40 AM (84 replies)
  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Sat, Nov 15 2014 2:08 PM

    Duck, I think I agree with you in general but I reckon meaningful averages would be difficult to achieve. 

    My average isn't great and I'm told my distance to the pin and putting stat's are very poor too, I really don't care.

    Abandoning saturation would make sandbagging very easy, and in a way saturation helps even things out by (most likely) discarding the rounds played in the toughest conditions.  The option of abandoning a poor round may also be more attractive to some if it was going to affect their average. 

    If, for instance, scores from short tees were ignored then there would still be the players that play mainly the tournaments that are in low wind conditions? What if it's the wrong green speed?  etc etc.  As ISH pointed out different players enjoy playing this game in different ways.

    The difference, in this respect, between this game and golf is that all the players there play the same tournaments in (roughly) the same conditions.  The stats in golf are therefor meaningfully comparable and that can't be the case here without going into lots of detail.  

    I think it'd be great if WGT could separate our stats into in low/med/high wind, even and uneven lies, by course, within each tier and whatever.  It must be achievable but I've no idea how much time and money it'd take and presumably it couldn't include rounds already played (or could it?).

     

  • TheDuckinator
    1,691 Posts
    Sat, Nov 15 2014 2:30 PM

    DodgyPutter:

    Duck, I think I agree with you in general but I reckon meaningful averages would be difficult to achieve. 

    My average isn't great and I'm told my distance to the pin and putting stat's are very poor too, I really don't care.

    Abandoning saturation would make sandbagging very easy, and in a way saturation helps even things out by (most likely) discarding the rounds played in the toughest conditions.  The option of abandoning a poor round may also be more attractive to some if it was going to affect their average. 

    If, for instance, scores from short tees were ignored then there would still be the players that play mainly the tournaments that are in low wind conditions? What if it's the wrong green speed?  etc etc.  As ISH pointed out different players enjoy playing this game in different ways.

    The difference, in this respect, between this game and golf is that all the players there play the same tournaments in (roughly) the same conditions.  The stats in golf are therefor meaningfully comparable and that can't be the case here without going into lots of detail.  

    I think it'd be great if WGT could separate our stats into in low/med/high wind, even and uneven lies, by course, within each tier and whatever.  It must be achievable but I've no idea how much time and money it'd take and presumably it couldn't include rounds already played (or could it?).

     

    I think we do agree for the most part. As far as the "Sandbagging " issue, you are right. However, If they did eliminate  "saturation", I believe sandbaggers could be easy to identify. One thing that would help would be to show a players "win percentage" before you start a credit match game. If you go up against someone with a 72 average and they have an 85% match game win percentage, you may not want to play them. 

    I'm not looking for the perfect system, just a better one....

    Duck

     

  • Jimbog1964
    8,378 Posts
    Sat, Nov 15 2014 4:53 PM

    If people think this through there is no way it impacts on anyone adversely:

    Sandbagging - It's a tier which will be mostly seen as above TL.  Think about that;

    Saturation - 53 - 57 averages are not real.  Noobs see that and think like what, not realising it's saturated (pre red tee days);

    Not a realistic average / stats: Well yes we can never get away from that completely, but at least it would be rolling, and from proper competition conditions with several courses needed. Some like real stats too, and what we have are poor. 

    People would still WD from RGs as by their nature most consider past the economic limit is time to go.

    Pro Shop - A way of getting it open a little early for genuine, slightly gifted players playing from real tees.  The SLDR v R1 debate would continue, but solved completely by say L93 as no way any which way you need it if you are a red tee specialist;

    50 average - Good point, but solved because people like this would be unaffected.  Red tees stuff would not get them to this tier, and so free to continue enjoying forever in their own way.

    Entry level - I would envisage a good place to start discussing would be say 58 overall average, and this average would be saturated (WGT get the 500 RRs still). IMO it should include at least 200 RRs from real competition condition's from a minimum number of real courses (say + 100 for those already saturated at time of introduction).  IMO those 100 / 200 real RRs should also be SP as that offers protection for anyone not wanting part of the new tier as much as anything, and hardly bad for WGT either.  

    None of the above is elite, but it's not real easy to get to shot to by accident solving that that possible complaint.  I never discussed a way out (Q school type stuff) as I am not sure it's pitched high enough.  There is a money list for elitism though, and so I fail to see how any of this has could be interpreted as anything to do with that.  

    Even more tiers after this - Not a point discussed by me.

    Elitist / pseudo elitist- To dispel that myth remember it's only about a for way some common sense tracking of stats for those that are interested.  In any which way how is that remotely elitist / pseudo elitist??  Real paper planes would not be in it, but it's above / alongside / above TL so there is no sandbagging problem. 

    If you think it through this would be a tier for the opposite of elitism - rolling and not saturated from real courses real conditions.  Ideally only single play would count in this tier also also.  Edit: requiring several courses in SP mode would be essential and also in any given time, and this is not aimed at elite / addicted so this can be set not high, and those that feel out of their depth an easy route out too.  Also Bop3/5 / UELs would all have to be done separate of course.

    Few things to think through more, but the above well in the improvement ball park.  

    Still in a land where gnomes won from non competitive sport is seen as the one main route to $s my hopes are low for anytime as things stand.  It's still a fantastic platform, but that much needed (real) competition would change a few things fast around this place IMO, but that glorious day has yet to pass...........

     

     

     

  • ISH47
    1,963 Posts
    Sat, Nov 15 2014 6:14 PM

    All good points Jim.. For the record, I'm not against this at all.  It won't impact me for a very long time, if ever.

  • TarheelsRule
    5,601 Posts
    Tue, Dec 16 2014 9:40 AM

    While I'm not hung up on what my average is versus others, it is a very flawed way that WGT calculates averages.

    For example I generally shoot between 29 and 32 on nine holes under fairly difficult conditions at my level.   However since I am a TL and I am now satuarated with enough scores so that anything higher than what is in my base now is not used, my average will continue to go down.   I'm a 60.53 today so if I shoot 35 eight times in a row and then throw in a 29, my average will go down.

    I think it would be much more realistic to use the last 100 rounds at your tier.  That would give  you a feel for how you are trending, etc. and be much closer to the way you really do handicaps.   No idea how difficult this would be to do but I know it's better than eventually having everyone as a TL with an average of 50.

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