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Praise for Pebble

• samppa454 308 Posts

  Wed, Dec 9 2015 11:48 AM

  You have a good point there. But the greens on Pebble Beach are somewhat difficult, if you compare them to the greens on Cabo. The green speeds seem to vary more on Pebble Beach than on Cabo. What I mean is a putt on Pebble Beach can be faster than it seems or slower than it seems. That is seldom an issue on Cabo. T12-C14 are the green speeds I am talking about now.

  derekortt:

  samppa454:

  Pebble Beach Front 9 is great and I truly enjoy the views! Sadly, I have seen a few problems in multiplayer, although that happens at many other courses too. It works great as a single player strokeplay event. Can`t wait to play the back 9 next. And the 18th hole is something to look forward to..

  Only, shall we say "bad thing" is the low scoring in tournaments on low winds at Pebble Beach front 9. I cannot understand how players consistently play 27-29 strokes with low winds. And not all of the players of those 27-29 scores are among the best in the legend tier. For instance with a 30, you are place 250-260 something in the legend tier new york life championship at the moment and one stroke better and you are in TOP-125 at least. 30 would be a decent result on other par72`s..

  However the winds make this course tougher and a lot more interesting. On heavy winds Pebble Beach is truly enjoyable to play! :)

   

  It's the number of short approaches, and both "par 5s" are reachable in 2 that cause the ridiculously low scores at Pebble. IMO, unless they make the greens the extremely fast speeds of 20+, this may even be easier than Cabo

   

• derekortt 669 Posts

  Wed, Dec 9 2015 1:45 PM

  samppa454:

  You have a good point there. But the greens on Pebble Beach are somewhat difficult, if you compare them to the greens on Cabo. The green speeds seem to vary more on Pebble Beach than on Cabo. What I mean is a putt on Pebble Beach can be faster than it seems or slower than it seems. That is seldom an issue on Cabo. T12-C14 are the green speeds I am talking about now.

  The greens at Pebble do not break quite as much as I was thinking they would, at least compared to how they break during the US Opens (which probably gives an idea as to just how fast the USGA makes the greens at Pebble, my suspicion is they were well above 15 in 2010).

   

  I was expecting Merion on Steroids

   

• 703 Posts

  Wed, Dec 9 2015 9:43 PM

  derekortt:

  The greens at Pebble do not break quite as much as I was thinking they would, at least compared to how they break during the US Opens (which probably gives an idea as to just how fast the USGA makes the greens at Pebble, my suspicion is they were well above 15 in 2010).

   

  I was expecting Merion on Steroids

  Also found quite a few spots around the greens with 30-40 rough.. Something which other US Open courses like Merion,Oly,BB,Oakmont dont have much of.. Maybe Pebble was not intended to have a US Open set up..

• ReisR 341 Posts

  Fri, Dec 11 2015 9:05 AM

  derekortt:

  ... which probably gives an idea as to just how fast the USGA makes the greens at Pebble, my suspicion is they were well above 15 in 2010.

  Of course they were not. There never was an US Open were the USGA stimpmeter read over 15.

  In fact Oakmont is generally considered to have the fastest greens with speed varying between 14 and 15. But they are always slowed down for the US Open.

  In respect of the greens' speed used on Pebble Beach during the US Open 2010, they varied between 11 1/2 and 12 feet on the USGA stimpmeter. This information can still be easily found on the Net today. For example, here's an article from the USGA.

   

• derekortt 669 Posts

  Fri, Dec 11 2015 7:34 PM

  ReisR:

  derekortt:

  ... which probably gives an idea as to just how fast the USGA makes the greens at Pebble, my suspicion is they were well above 15 in 2010.

  Of course they were not. There never was an US Open were the USGA stimpmeter read over 15.

  In fact Oakmont is generally considered to have the fastest greens with speed varying between 14 and 15. But they are always slowed down for the US Open.

  In respect of the greens' speed used on Pebble Beach during the US Open 2010, they varied between 11 1/2 and 12 feet on the USGA stimpmeter. This information can still be easily found on the Net today. For example, here's an article from the USGA.

   

  Shinnecock says hi.

   

  The USGA ran Bethpage at 15 for the final round of 2002

  http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/u.s.-open-too-fast-green-speeds-stimpmeter

  "By Sunday afternoon, unofficial Stimpmeter readings were approaching 15."

  Oakmont was ran at 14.5 in 2007

  http://www.golfdigest.com/story/pinehursts-back-to-back-opens-whitten

  "even though Oakmont's greens were running at 14.5 on the Stimpmeter"

  In short, the USGA does use extreme speeds and it is very well documented. The USGA was saying Shinnecock was running at 13, when they were MUCH faster than Bethpage and Oakmont, where we had documented 14.5-15 greens

   

  In 1992, the greens were 10.7 at Pebble. In 2010, they were MUCH faster. The USGA often runs the greens faster than they advertise. They said 11.5-12 for Pebble. However, there was some wind for the final round, which really dried them out

• ReisR 341 Posts

  Sat, Dec 12 2015 6:32 AM

  Yes, that confirms what I have stated before: 

  - There never was an US Open were the USGA stimpmeter read over 15.

  - The US Open 2010 greens played between 11 1/2 and 12 feet on the USGA stimpmeter.

  Note that I would not trust the quote you have provided from links magazine. They are not corroborated by the USGA green speed readings.

  On the other hand, the information you provided about Oakmont is correct and makes sense. It's one of the courses that really has fast greens.

  These days the USGA always aims to a general speed of 12 during the US Open. And this was also the case at this year's tournament at Chambers Bay.

  
  

• derekortt 669 Posts

  Sat, Dec 12 2015 6:41 AM

  One thing I WILL grant you, Mike Davis has slowed down the greens significantly once he took over the USGA.

   

  The Bethpage reading has been confirmed by numerous sources. 

  Pebble's greens did speed up during the tournament. They were much faster on the final day (which makes sense due to the wind, greens got away from the USGA). Also, how fast do you think they were at Shinnecock? The USGA never made a stimp meter reading. Do you honestly believe they were slower than Oakmont's?

  However, I like you, do believe the days is crazy fast greens are over. I think Merion was the fastest Davis has allowed the greens to get under his watch

• ReisR 341 Posts

  Sat, Dec 12 2015 7:45 AM

  derekortt:

  The Bethpage reading has been confirmed by numerous sources. 

  Pebble's greens did speed up during the tournament. They were much faster on the final day (which makes sense due to the wind, greens got away from the USGA). Also, how fast do you think they were at Shinnecock? The USGA never made a stimp meter reading. Do you honestly believe they were slower than Oakmont's?

  However, I like you, do believe the days is crazy fast greens are over. I think Merion was the fastest Davis has allowed the greens to get under his watch

  Well, I have never seen those famous "numerous sources". Let's call it guestimates. But real stimpmeter readings? no!

  I remember well that last day US Open at Bethpage and if I had to give my own guestimate, I would have said the greens were running at 13 maximum. Of course, then someone else would call me a "source", but you wouldn't be any wiser about the subject :)

  I would agree that Shinnecock greens were playing very fast. But at best they would have matched the 14 reading at Oakmont which you had previously mentioned.

  I would also agree that the USGA has now decided to "steady the ship" and has gone back to sensible green speeds.

  Anyway, I only decided to correct what was posted about Pebble Beach green speeds at the US Open, because they were way over the top. I am sure that you would agree that saying that the greens were running over 15 is a enormous difference from the 11 /12 to 12 that they in reality used. Just to give an example, in a steep downhill putt and using the same power stroke, Its the difference between being just short of the hole and finishing 30 feet past it !!!

• derekortt 669 Posts

  Sat, Dec 12 2015 8:14 AM

  Here is a definitive source for the Bethpage green speed, a quote from the Bethpage greenskeeper himself

  http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/15/nyregion/a-year-later-a-new-normal-at-bethpage.html

  "Local golfers debate whether the Black Course will be kept in the same condition it was during the Open. So far, little has deteriorated.

  Craig Currier, head greenskeeper at Bethpage, said the rough is being kept slightly shorter (2.5 inches instead of 3.5 last June) and the greens are not cut as tight. Last June, they were lightning-fast, a 15 on the stimpmeter, he said."

   

  I don't think we'll ever see greens those speeds again, at least not until the USGA tires of Mike Davis' antics of turning par 4s into par 5s. Even at Oakmont, I suspect we'll be around 13 under Mike Davis instead of David Fay's 14.5 trying to ensure well over par wins. Under Fay, the greens usually ran 1 to 2 feet faster than they advertised whereas Davis keeps the greens as advertised

   

  As for Pebble, I think one of the issues with the greens playing faster in 2010 was the wind direction. In the windswept days of 1992 and 2000 when we had scoring averages over 77, there was an onshore wind. That means the wind was blowing usually against the slopes, so downhill putts were into the wind. I recently watched the 1992 final round on Youtube and downhill putts were coming up short due to the wind. In 2010, the wind was from a different direction, so it is possible that is why the greens effectively played much faster than in previous opens. My green speed estimate could be off as a result

• ReisR 341 Posts

  Sat, Dec 12 2015 8:37 AM

  derekortt:

  Here is a definitive source for the Bethpage green speed, a quote from the Bethpage greenskeeper himself 

  Thank you for the link. As I have already said, what is needed is a real stimpmeter reading made on the day of the competition. Something recorded and verified by the USGA. A fide dignus source.

  A quote made to a newspaper, qualifies more along the lines of a proud Bethpage greenkeeper trying to brag about how tough his course was at the US Open. Not to mention that he said it 1 year after the event !

  Nonetheless, I would agree with everything else you have stated: - The change in USGA policy in setting green speeds for US Open and the effect of wind in green speeds at the Pebble Beach US Open 2010.