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Manchester incident

• birchi 1,492 Posts

  Tue, Jun 6 2017 11:31 AM

  Dubfore:

  It's not a religions faults either.  The twisting/corrupting of any good teaching (especially religion)  to commit an attrocity on any innocent human being is in my mind, the definition of pure evil or madness or a combination of both.

  I found your comment a very welcome change from the mostly quite disturbing 'debate' that is going on here, but I don't agree with the cited statement.

  I guess it really depends on how you define 'religion'. If you take the religious texts seriously, everyone who read the Quran will agree that the actions of ISIS (in syria/iraq and abroad) are in their majority a literal interpretation of the text, especially the Medinan surah. Due to the fact that there is no primary institution like the Vatican deciding what's catholic and what's not, in my opinion ISIS has just as much right to speak for Islam as anyone propagating a peaceful and exegetical version of the faith.

  I think it's important to speak the truth about the dangerous ideology of Islam and help moderate muslims in their quest of reforming their fate (though you should distinguish between Islam, Political Islam and Jihadism; I should probably add that I find christianity almost as troubling and an equally despicable ideology just with the bonus that at least in europe no one takes it serious anymore, and that the seperation of state and church is stated in the bible, but not the quran). If you don't (and the liberal left which I consider myself a part of doesn't like to touch this topic) you leave the subject to those bigots who use their "critique of Islam" as a faint disguise of their racism.

• Dubfore 4,350 Posts

  Tue, Jun 6 2017 12:35 PM

  MichaelStroke:

  Is someone actually comparing a liberation of a people against a despotic leader to the intentional targeting of civilians, mostly children, with a sucker-punch bomb?

  Iraq has never had a days freedom/libertaion, (call it what you will) under Saddam Hussein or since the US and allies invasion, people might have got the impression they were liberated, but they never were, they just got a bunch of different rulers/legislators with different rules.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't ISIS founded after the results of the chaos that devolped in the aftermath of that Iraq invasion?

  I could ask of anyone's opinion, what is freedom? But that would be a good question for another day. 

  US governments/advisors/war mongers hands are not bloodless in the killing of innocents. Other governments are directly or indirectly complicit in that. This present and past Irish governments, by allowing Shannon Airport to be used as a stopover for US miltary flights are also complicit.  I'm not just talking in general about war, I'm talking about atrocities in many places. The evidence is there. Complicit directly and indirectly.

  There are many companies on this 32 county island that make components/parts for the machinery of war.  Complicit.  

  None of the above is in my name or my families names nor the names of many people that I know and many millions more that I don't know.

  But we are where we are, where we were and where we will continue to be if this eye for an eye and blind indfifference to the proliferation of weapons of war continues. 

  What was it Muhatma Ghandi said about an eye for an eye?

  People should be digging very deep and asking how did we get here. Then maybe we can work out how we can make it stop. Understanding, then action.

  I copied this below from a similar thread/post on Facebook. The poster was responding to comments about some media outlets saying that the perpatrators in Manchester are insane and in need of psychotherapy.  The final paprgraph is the most sensible response I've read since the Manchester murders. 

  Memet Uludag

  · 6 hrs · 

  Calling for phycological therapy for the 'radicalised' Muslims is saying 'the terror attacks are the makings of sick minds'. If you bring this to its logical conclusion it has deep and serious consequences.

  However sickening these attacks are, they are NOT the actions of medically/mentally sick people. (Remember only people like Breivik and other far right/fascist killers supposed to have mental problems and bad childhood :))

  This suggestion doesn't address the real issues, it doesn't point us at the root-cause of the problems, it ignores the long history and real conditions within which such terror groups & individuals emerged, and worse, it completely white washes imperialism and its actions.

  I admit, such a suggestion makes good mainstream media headline but beyond that it is nothing but a sound bite, in fact a diversion from the real debate.

  The self trapping nature of this suggestion is, the attackers can claim insanity and cannot be held accountable for what they did.

  Also, one could be confronted by an argument saying: if the terror attacks are a result of sick minds needing therapy then why not leave it to science and medicine? If that's the case, why do various Muslim clerics comment on these attacks? Surely sick minds have no religious-legal-moral obligations do they? Especially if they are that sick to commit such murders....
  Rather self conflicting, self invalidating argument isn't it, to assay they should be given therapy.

  Like the clerics, many others in society find themselves having to deal with the issue of terrorism because it is NOT a medical matter but a social, political and historical one...

  TRYING TO ANALYSE & UNDERSTAND terror and how/why it happens is NOT SUPPORTING it. Let's try to understand it, politically and historically, shall we, before we become hostage to our media friendly off the cuff proposals.

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Tue, Jun 6 2017 1:24 PM

  The situation in Iraq allowed the network, and thus likely expedited things..............Wahabi Islam as funded by a sand dune place is not because of that.

  IS have no front line, no political objective that allows any separation of state.  One tribe will fight another until we all live in caves in some stone age version of the inquisition.

  The west said yeah sure stick a mosque up - reasonable.  Everyone else gets a building.

  UK has 3000 very serious radicals being watched, and another 20,000 looking "well dodge". There is a major issue within Muslim communities.

   A major uncomfortable fact that must be faced is that you get to 5% Muslim population you is long in chit street.  

  All the do gooding and nice talking so far has not changed that, and people are over it.  Being just kind and tolerant will not fix it..............Wish it would but it will not.  

  It can be done in a western way, but soft footing with muslim schools stepping out of line, hate preaching, bad mosques (loads of them) or anything one step out of line can't continue to be taboo to speak about........................There is no excuse for any of this.  EDIT: Still offer the integration but also time to choose your friends.

   

• gonfission 2,282 Posts

  Tue, Jun 6 2017 3:24 PM

  Agree ^^^

  Jim, MI 5 has a LOT to answer for, dropping the dossier on the latest incident over there.

  Not pointing fingers at them, wiggling one at the leftist's, who blanket it over, in hopes of, "Maybe he won't do it", coming to fruition. Which it will always come to, with this sort.

  Dubfore:

  I could ask of anyone's opinion, what is freedom?

  It is what I died for, twice, on two continents, and dearly gave, two sons for.

  Freedom, contrary to YOUR belief, is NOT FREE!!

  Dubfore:

  What was it Muhatma Ghandi said about an eye for an eye?

  Apparently, like all LEFTIST'S, you do NOT, do ANY, diligence. You parrot out the facts that seem fit, for your use, in a very minute fashion, not linear from the beginning...

  If I didn't know any better, I would guess by your statements, you were, are, educated by the U.S. collegiate liberal's, destroying our children's minds, and freedom, to THINK, for themselves.

  Hillary LOST! GET OVER IT!

  Let me help you with the fact, that Gandhi, did NOT become a 'Mahatma", ( Holy man) until after, some bloody confrontations, in his earlier life, that he expounded upon, very RARELY, in order to convey the "new" way of civil unrest, without violence, that YOU know only of him...

  People who think violence is inherently evil and avoiding it in all situations makes you a better person often tout Gandhi as a patron saint. This is not accurate. Gandhi was not a pacifist, and those who respect his conviction that life is a quest for truth should be interested in the reality of his views on violence. I will briefly summarize the facts here.

  While promoting the civil rights of Indian residents of South Africa, Gandhi urged his fellow "coolies" to peacefully disobey British laws giving them a second-class status. He endured personal attacks without aggression. He believed peaceful resistance to injustice without retaliation or even self-defense would eventually win British respect. This was successful. However, when British South Africans fought Dutch South Africans in the Boer War, Gandhi maintained that Indians fighting with their British masters to defend their neighbors would also win respect and accomplish good. Not the Deepak Chopra mindset.

  It is worth noting that Gandhi's moral philosophy was based in great part on the Bhagavadgita and the Bible. Think about that. The Gita focuses on the moral dilemma of Arjuna when called to fight a battle against his own family. God's avatar Krishna instructs him to obey his moral duties (whether hugging one's enemy or killing one's friend) rather than his emotional sentiments. 

  .

  Do your DILLIGENCE! Not talking points, that favor a secular argument...

  .

  Mohandas Gandhi was ruthless, early on...

  .

  As was your savior, less you forget...

  .

  Jesus famously urged turning the other cheek rather than self defense or retaliation but never spoke against violence in defense of others. To the contrary, Jesus told his followers to bring swords to the location of his arrest. He was personally responsible for his disciples' weapon-packing in a situation of escalating violence. When disciple Peter took a swipe at one Roman soldier's head and amputated his ear, Jesus never condemned such defensive loyalty but healed the wound then stated he didn't need any defense because he had supernatural help. The Bible says there is a time to kill and a time to heal. Bullies think it's always time to kill, while cowards think it never is. Gandhi was neither one.

  .

  Mohandas Gandhi's REAL legacy,

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  It's true that Gandhi was more rigidly nonviolent in his declining years. Yet, this was actually a disaster. When his friend Jinnah became more and more aggressive in demanding the separate Muslim homeland that later became Pakistan and Bangladesh, Gandhi became more and more appeasing. The resulting partition of India was anything but nonviolent. Multitudes of men were murdered. Vast numbers of women were cruelly raped and slain.

  .

  All of the above, you will NOT learn, unless, YOU, YOURSELF, follow your, trotted out idol's, full path, not what you hear, or choose, NOT, to remember, and tout...

  .

  If you will be the first one, into Syria, waltz up to Basheer Assad's door, knock on it, and give him a big old Irish hug & a lolli pop. Let me know how that ends, will ya?

  .

  I'll be right behind you, with a dozen Abrams tanks, and 2 dozen Apache helicopters, to clean up after you stain the sidewalk.

  .

  People who do not learn from their past, are destine to repeat it.

  .

  I'm with Einstein, " You're INSANE" dude.

  .

  Just sayin ;-))

• gonfission 2,282 Posts

  Tue, Jun 6 2017 3:57 PM

  AHHHH. Michael, always the one, with a penchant for the obvious.

  MichaelStroke:

  Here's my take of how to combat this plague - love has a blast radius of 0.  Find a new weapon.

  MichaelStroke:

  There's a reason why I'm generally apathetic to attacks over in Europe.  I keep getting reminded as to why.

• Dubfore 4,350 Posts

  Tue, Jun 6 2017 4:18 PM

  @ gonfission

  All I asked was, what did Mahatma Ghandi say. I think it was, an eye for an eye will leave us all blind.  I don't know the point of the history rant about Ghandi,  Ghandi is not my hero and I'm not a follower of his. Nor do I care for the politics of Hillary Clinton.

  I was born, reared and educated in Ireland.  I have a vote and do vote here. My saviour? I'm an athiest, and consider myself a good human being,

  I'm not qualified to make judgements on peoples mental state. 

  I genuinely feel for your losses and have no idea the pain you go through, but do sincerely hope you find your own peace.

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

• gonfission 2,282 Posts

  Tue, Jun 6 2017 4:44 PM

  I'm good

  You are correct, that was attributed to him, but a pacifist, he was not.

  Thanks for the acknowledgement.

  When you said something to the effect of "Lets talk to them"...

  That type of non violent reaction would be acceptable, even by my standards, (as a war monger), however, it is not possible with this type of combatant.

  As the Japanese were once on a path, of global destruction, talking till we were blue in the face, did nothing for the allies & us.

  It took Truman, to understand, THIS MUST STOP!!!

  He stopped them.

  I understand the horror, and atrocities that man conveys, towards his own kind, all to well sir.

  Some times it takes a desperate act, an unimaginable event, to stop evil incarnate.

  I have no bones with any one sir.

  I am at peace, and try my damn best to keep my pie hole shut. Time for talking went out the window 2000 years ago...

  The following is not racist, it is a fact of life in the middle east >

  The only person an Arab hates more than a Jew, is another Arab. I have lived with that knowledge for 45 years. That is why there is so much silence in the Muslim community sir.

  Also, so much unrest, over there. Close all borders, and keep it over there. Close Syria's, Iran's, Iraq's, all of them. Make them sort it out, or stop it, over there.

  Why in your country or mine?

  The only logical conclusion, to mass migration of a secular people, is that they will bring their fight where ever they land. You can carve that, in stone...

  I believe the Egyptians did just that.

  The colonists did the very same thing here.

   

  You're cool, no sweat :-))

   

• Dubfore 4,350 Posts

  Thu, Jun 8 2017 4:56 AM

  Ducati916:

  What is wrong with the world.

  Great question from the original poster.

   

  You make a lot of points gonfission and comparisons that don't add up. 

  Do you think it's always the other side's fault when the US is involved?

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Thu, Jun 8 2017 10:16 AM

  Dubfore:

  Do you think it's always the other side's fault when the US is involved?

  Not aimed at me I know.  

  However, the point of the thread is now at least x2 recent incidents.  

  Nothing excuses those in any way shape or form, and nothing excuses any condoning or mitigation of them.  Even by the own announcement of nutjobs, it would not matter anyway.....................In their eyes, they have an excuse for carnage, child abuse, womans repression and you name it.....

  Thus your question is for wider debate somewhere else (edit: even if I'm not quite sure what the purpose of your point is).

• MichaelStroke 2,066 Posts

  Thu, Jun 8 2017 10:46 AM

  I'm well aware that America's biggest export is its morality.  However, it doesn't have a history of inflicting cruelty upon people solely to be cruel.

  When it comes to ethics, ISIS doesn't have a leg to stand on, so in a match between USA vs. radical Islam, America will always have the high ground.