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Ok WGT

Tue, Dec 20 2022 10:10 PM (89 replies)
  • Robert1893
    7,721 Posts
    Wed, Feb 21 2018 5:15 PM

    Luckystar5:
    Yes, thank you, I saw that.  Don't laugh, but I'm not a Nike fan irl, so I'd rather play the callys, and I have found that advice given to me before, was to match my equipment by brand, might be a better idea.  So I'm trying it.  Time will tell. 


    Hey, no laughter from me. I actually love that particular Callaway. I think it's a great ball. And actually, I thought I was the only one! 

    For whatever reason, I just don't feel like paying the price for it plus I got comfortable with the Nike L81+ ball I play. But if the Nike balls ever go away, that's the ball I would play. 

  • Miantiao
    401 Posts
    Thu, Feb 22 2018 1:45 AM

    el3n1:
    It saddens me that you are incapable of  or unwilling to acknowledge the proof and documentation provided

    Quote from Young46 at the beginning of his VEM video, for both you and 11BC2 to enjoy.

    "... I don't know everything about it, so I'm going to give you my loose interpretation (my loose italics in bold), I'm not a certified VEM expert, but I'll tell you how I see it. Is it right or wrong?  I don't know".

    Kudos to Young46 for stating as much. You blokes would do well do listen and read more carefully in order to prevent any ridiculous misunderstanding, and to propagate such drivel to others.

     

  • el3n1
    4,502 Posts
    Thu, Feb 22 2018 10:08 AM

    Miantiao:
    There you go. I've pointed out the flaws in your attempt at providing proof.

    Sadly, your so called points are not relevant.

    Again, in practice mode you hit from the exact same spot when taking a mulligan, nothing changed. 

    I never changed the aim point on the flag, the distance stayed the same and I applied no spin whatsoever.  I simply swung the club and only recorded the dinged shots.

    And if the WIND were such a factor, I would not have even had as close of a grouping as I did have.  I would be more than happy with nearly every shot dinged shot I recorded and ever one of them would have given me a reasonable birdie attempt! 

    Your obstinance is no excuse for ignoring a documented attempt whereas you still have made ZERO attempt to support your own false claims.  It simply proves, you could not do so with video evidence.  Myself or anyone else can replicate my data, YOU can not do so with your claims that every shot would be within a 2 foot circle...the game is not designed to give you that kind of consistency or accuracy.  Just sad that you can't see that!

  • el3n1
    4,502 Posts
    Thu, Feb 22 2018 10:11 AM

    Miantiao:
    You blokes would do well do listen and read more carefully in order to prevent any ridiculous misunderstanding, and to propagate such drivel to others.

    And neither of us has claimed to know everything, in fact we have stated and acknowledged WGT does not disclose the details, if you read the posts, you would know that...

    Youngs46 does acknowledge VEM and he affirms it is in fact a part of WGT game.  Unlike you, who still denies and ignores facts that prove the game is not designed to have the precise accuracy you claim it does.  

    All you do is read what you want and try to manipulate or cherry pick details you think support your deluded points.  And you still have not provided a single documented record to support your false claims.   This is delusional!  

  • 11BC2
    555 Posts
    Thu, Feb 22 2018 11:50 AM

    First off, I wish you guys would play nice.  It's just a game and it seems to be getting a bit hot in here.  I'll stick with what's already been said and what WGT actually says.  Okay, what's already been said? 

    Miantiao:
    Kudos to Young46 for stating as much. You blokes would do well do listen and read more carefully in order to prevent any ridiculous misunderstanding, and to propagate such drivel to others.
    What did I say previously?
    11BC2:
    The patent doesn't tell us if there is a ceiling on how much randomness is applied, how long it last, or what the parameters for VEM are.  We just accept it's part of the game and do our best to sink the putt o_^.

     

    Miantiao:
    [0019]

    • In real life, as users become more skilled with equipment, their existing equipment is easier to use and they can select new equipment that gives them an increased level of control. This observation forms the basis for automatically adjusting a piece of virtual equipment's sweet spot(s) according to a user's skill level.

    Basically, one's Tier determines skill level, and not the player's recent form. You see where this is going now?

    I responded previously by saying you were taking things out of context.  Why did I say that?  You seem to think Only ones Tier determines skill level.  I would also disagree with your assessment of [0019].  The observation relates to your personal skill (proficiency) and equipment you use.

    Key words would be "skilled with equipment" which is directly related to your game play, and "can select new equipment" which has a default precision and forgiveness (seen below in [0021] and 0026]). I think multiple factors determine skill level, one of which is indeed recent form.   WGT, while sometimes ambiguous seems rather clear on this point (skill level)in [0021] and [0026].  Why do I think that?

    • [0021]
      Accuracy is the probability that a given piece of virtual equipment will perform as a user intended. The probability that a swing of a virtual golf club will cause a virtual golf ball to follow an intended trajectory and land where it was aimed is an example of accuracy. By way of another illustration, accuracy can be the probability that a virtual gun will hit a virtual target when fired. Precision is the probability that user interaction with a given piece of virtual equipment will result in the same outcome time after time. For example, precision can be the probability that the same swing of a golf club will result in the same outcome. In one implementation, the accuracy and precision of a given piece of virtual equipment can be automatically increased as a user's skill level increases. Similarly, the accuracy and precision of a given piece of virtual equipment can be automatically decreased as a user's skill level decreases. These relationships are illustrated in exemplary graphs 204 and 206 of FIG. 2. In summary, a user's ability to control virtual equipment increases commensurate with their skill level as shown in graph 208. Although the exemplary graphs 204, 206 and 208 in FIG. 2 illustrate roughly linear relationships, other relationships are possible and can be defined by a virtual equipment model, as described below.

    No one drops levels or Tiers.  You either tier up or you stagnate.  It would have to be based on your actual game play also.  So then on what basis does the virtual equipment change?  Do we see evidence of this in the WGT Patent?  We can respond with an emphatic YES.

    • [0026]
      A skill level monitor 306 monitors changes to user skill level. A change in user skill level can be detected by the user's proficiency at using a given piece of virtual equipment to achieve one or more goals in the virtual universe (e.g., such as an improved score), the ability to perform relatively advanced tasks with the virtual equipment, an achieved accuracy rate using the virtual equipment, an achieved precision rate using the virtual equipment, time spent using the virtual equipment, combinations of these, and other factors. In one implementation, user skill level is quantified as a number. If the skill level increases or decreases beyond a certain threshold, a change is communicated to the VEM 306, which in turn can communicate the change to the input model 302 and the representation 304. Using a non-zero threshold value can prevent the VEM 306 from changing too rapidly.

    Notice it says Wgt monitors "changes" in user skill level.  It doesn't say Wgt monitors "advancement" in user Tier or level.  They also state "proficiency" when using an actual piece of equipment.   Key distinctions help us understand the context.  Wgt also states " such as an improved score".  We must not confuse this with the Tier or current game level we are at.  Emphasis is placed on the improved scoring which then enabled you to Tier up. Again, current user proficiency in conjunction with current equipment.

    What can we take from all this?  There seem to be 2 parameters regarding VEM.  Firstly, every piece of equipment has a built in range of precision and forgiveness based on the current model of the Wgt universe (whatever that may be; wgt eludes it's not always the same).  2nd, as the above [0021] and [0026] state, User proficiency, such as current scoring effects VEM (current skill level, separate from tier mandated equipment).

    After reading points [0021] and [0026] we can see VEM can be adapted.  It can be added via a skill increase or removed via a skill decrease.   Again, this is a KEY point.  If skill was purely based on Tier the patent wouldn't state "decreases or removing" in the language.

    In cases where skill has increased (such as an improved score [0026] ), the patent clearly states that additional parameters which contribute to randomness will be implemented.  Do we know under what conditions these changes occur, or how long they last, or when they are updated?  We have no idea.

    It would be nice if we could all just get along.  And to finish, there's a lot we don't understand but from what the patent states he have a generalized idea.  I hope this helps anyone following this thread with interest.

    Cheers.

     

     

  • el3n1
    4,502 Posts
    Thu, Feb 22 2018 12:14 PM

    11BC2:
    First off, I wish you guys would play nice.  It's just a game and it seems to be getting a bit hot in here.

    Sorry Sean, I appreciate the detailed information provided.  I can get offended when someone seems to willingly ignore details shared with them and in turn dismissing the efforts of those trying to help them understand a bigger picture and it feels like an intentional act on their part.  Even with my limited experience on WGT, less than a year, I can clearly see and understand the points you have made, the "documented results" I attempted to share in an effort to help and I feel a little offended when so much effort has been put forth to help illustrate or explain what we do understand and what we don't know completely.

    Again, appreciate your tact, I can feel offended when direct efforts feel directly ignored or rationalized without proper consideration.

  • Miantiao
    401 Posts
    Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:03 AM

    It makes no sense to decrease or increase "random" or "variable" outcomes for a player's shots.

    Why would the software want to help a player play better or worse according to recent scores (skill) ? One could easily play a few deliberate bad scored rounds and then enter a 1000cr tournament knowing their shot grouping will be narrower.

    On the other hand, why would the software penalise a player for shooting good rounds?

    In essence that is how you have interpreted VEM.

    In any case, I have never experienced a shot where, after consideration, I couldn't explain.

    Your 7 iron shot with a 1mph tailwind that landed 24ft right of the pin must be an anomoly, much the same as a few recorded shots of the MacDaddy when it first became available.

    (Edited)

    The nerve, I'm just so offended!

  • Robert1893
    7,721 Posts
    Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:18 AM

    Miantiao:
    The nerve, I'm just so offended!


    Yes, people are much too quick to be offended.

    No, that does not provide one with an excuse to offend or post potentially offensive remarks. At a time when civility seems a rare commodity, we should not go out of our way to fan the flames by being offensive.

    Now, as anyone who has read many of my posts knows, I'm not above posting a sarcastic quip or retort. But my intent is never to offend. Rather, it's an attempt at humor, which sometimes (probably by chance) hits its mark. After all, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and again.

    Regardless, I'm also very quick to apologize if I step over the line and offend. I choose not to hide behind the line that people simply need to toughen up (or however one chooses to put that).

  • Miantiao
    401 Posts
    Fri, Feb 23 2018 2:25 PM

    Robert1893:
    I'm also very quick to apologize if I step over the line and offend. I choose not to hide behind the line that people simply need to toughen up (or however one chooses to put that).

    Here's the thing, why should you apologise if you've offended somebody? Why should you feel the need to acquiesce to someone's personal sensibilities?

    Why should people think it their right not to be offended, or demand some form of explanation or apology because they were offended? 

    I don't hide behind the line that some people need to toughen up and deal with being offended, because its the truth.

    Quite a few of those that can't deal with being offended end up attempting to force their subjective sensibilities onto others through coerced apologies, freedom restricting legislation, and even genocide.

    No, I don't care who I offend.

     

     

  • Robert1893
    7,721 Posts
    Fri, Feb 23 2018 6:18 PM

    Miantiao:
    Here's the thing, why should you apologise if you've offended somebody?

    Because I believe it's the right thing to do. 

     

    Miantiao:
    Why should people think it their right not to be offended, or demand some form of explanation or apology because they were offended? 

    I never suggested that anyone has a right to not to be offended or to demand an apology. Still, nice straw man. You set it up and knocked it down. 

     

    Miantiao:
    I don't hide behind the line that some people need to toughen up and deal with being offended, because its the truth.

    Simply asserting something is true doesn't make it true.

     

    Miantiao:
    Quite a few of those that can't deal with being offended end up attempting to force their subjective sensibilities onto others through coerced apologies, freedom restricting legislation, and even genocide.

    I don't even know what to do with that hyperbole. But I will note this: this has to set some sort of speed record for going from personal offense to genocide. 

     

    Miantiao:
    No, I don't care who I offend.

    That much is clear. I suppose if one wants to live a life like that, it's obviously a person's prerogative. Strikes me as a lousy way to go through life, not caring the effect that one's actions or words have on others.

    I guess I learned a simple lesson a long time ago: it's not about me. I don't always live up to that lesson. But at least I'm willing to acknowledge when I fall short, which I often do. That fact as well as my faith provide me with a great deal of contentment. And I'd much rather have that contentment or peace than the alternative.

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