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Just an extemporaneous thought...

• krskfr 458 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 8:58 AM

  kavvz:

  OP wouldn't answer this question, but maybe you will.  Do you consider a calculator an aid? 

  sorry for the delay in response, its a little difficult when WGT puts you in a time out before allowing you to post a message (meaning they have to approve of the post before it gets here lol), anyways, i guess i was mistaken in thinking Mags didn't use a calculator, for some reason in my hind-brain, i had the impression from past videos of his (i often had the volume on mute, and just watched his gameplay on the screen), that he thought about the shot for 10 seconds or so now putting two and two together he probably was clicking away at a calculator off to this side, out of the range of view for his audience, so in actuality, i have to revise my list because of this FACT that you reminded me of. YES A CALCULATOR IS AN AID. I want to discern who could be the best who solely plays on feel of the club/putts. I know it isn't me ( although im a decent performer), but who could hold the mantle for this title? I don't know, not every great player streams their rounds, so i guess as a WGT community, there will never be a congruent answer. It's all subjective. I wish i saw a match between the two behemoth's, aka YOUNG46 vs FMAGNETS. If one were to poll the community, i bet these two gentlemen come up the most when asked who the top player is. Oh well to each is own! Take Care all. 

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 10:38 AM

  Sounds good Brad... I think I grasp some of the underlying concern of Yiannis, but I also agree with you that basic calculations done on a calculator or spreadsheet are qualitatively no different... I tried to define this subtle distinction but most people seem incapable of discerning grey areas so we argue all or nothing... it goes nowhere.

  kavvz:

  No doubt people have advanced spreadsheets

  the above is possibly the biggest "threat" to those "feel players" maybe...

  have some of the advanced spreadsheets become so complex and close to reverse engineering the game they do challenge or question how the game is approached?  It is a harder question to assess without all the facts or details.  I am not making a judgmental statement on it however, just posing whether this is the underlying concern being expressed.  

  That said, watching leaderboards-- I have observed those players that "seemingly" dominate and are known to use spreadsheets still WD and still have bad rounds... they don't dominate every round they play... so spreadsheets alone don't dictate every outcome... I have no doubt they help in the hands of a good player, but so does playing thousands of rounds and learning from experience…  

  but it is not a guarantee.. and this is possibly where VEM or variance comes into play to help create the scoring swings most of us would observe in real life golf, and in turn attempting to replicate a semi-realistic golf experience in that we have good days and bad...

  I think it should be noted though... there do appear to be slightly more "restrictive" guidelines as to what can be used during the live WGT events and the Denmark event we watched.  Yes... calculators and notes were used... but there did appear to be some restrictions... at least that was my impression...

  Some players are altering their style of play to potentially become more competitive in a live event where cash is up for grabs...at least from what I can tell.

   

   

• BHenke2 397 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 10:54 AM

  kavvz:

  Ty Ed, Henke's claim is nothing short of ridiculous and I think you've underscored that nicely. 

  If it is so ridiculous I would be curious to know what percentage out of the top 20 yearly money winners were spreadsheet users compared to basic math users. I presume both of you are spreadsheet users since you think there is no difference between the two. 

• Robert1893 7,722 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 11:16 AM

  BHenke2:

  If it is so ridiculous I would be curious to know what percentage out of the top 20 yearly money winners were spreadsheet users compared to basic math users

  I'm curious to know what you think the difference between calculations in a spreadsheet and basic math is.

• el3n1 4,502 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 11:24 AM

  #bhenke2

  you are making a few assumptions here … and it doesn't appear you are reading my post... I stated it is likely there is a qualitative difference between highly complex spreadsheets that may have been created that are closing in on reverse engineering the game and what I believe most people use...

  I stated in one of my posts... me creating a basic spreadsheet that does basic functions which I easily replicate when I sit down with a calculator when I play mobile because I am not going to sit on a mobile device and in front of a computer to type in a few calculations... knowing I can play mobile using a calculator using those same type of calculations shows they are just that... basic calculations... I just speed up the time while playing on a computer by entering those same repetitive tasks in a "so called spreadsheet" because it is easier and it saves time.

  Claiming all spreadsheets are highly elaborate productions of complex algorithms and in turn equivalent of undermining the game is excessive and yes, maybe ridiculous but that was Brad's word but you appeared to address each of us.

   

   

• BHenke2 397 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 11:39 AM

  Robert1893:

  I'm curious to know what you think the difference between calculations in a spreadsheet and basic math is.

  I do two calculations. One for elevation and one for wind speed. That's it. I have seen people using spreadsheets that have at least half a dozen inputs. Then add in the rulers, compasses and any other thing on their screens that make it easier. I know that I will never convince the spreadsheet users there is a difference and that's ok. I am happy to finish in the top five sometimes in the weekly WGT tourneys and am proud when I do this. If I had some fancy spreadsheet telling me exactly how to hit a shot I would not feel that I had accomplished the same thing. I am curious to how your spreadsheets work on the uneven lie tournaments? Or have they perfected them to work with those too. 

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 12:06 PM

  Jeez, we are allowed different opinions without a constant battering over the same points, as Yiannis seems to have had enough allow me. 

  kavvz:

  I didn't think mags would mind me pointing out that he uses a calculator to play and to draw comparisons to others that do mathematical things to calculate shots.  If mags minds then there's endless other players who pop up windows calc on their screens that I could use, but I thought since he's one of the best on here he was the perfect example.

  You make it sound like the way Mags usues a calculator is similar to how others use a spreadsheet, I don't think it is.  I just watched his "Father's Day Skytrak Challenge winning 52" perhaps you could do the same and tell me on which shots it was in use.

  The 18 holes took 22min 30sec. I watched another prominent player take roughly the same time for 9, he was typing into a spreadsheet on another computer and using an on screen calculator.

  I'm guessing you are referring to streamed rounds when he is playing someone else.  This is a guess, I've about as little idea as you, I'd say he uses the calculator for something to do and to keep focus when his opponent is playing especially when a 90sec clock is insited upon.  Even with 45sec it's probably hard for him to keep his rhythm.

  It's ok to use the aid of the aim box to aim because that's just "feel", but it's not ok to make a ruler that has 10 markers equal to the width of that aimer box and use that to aim?   Those rulers ruin the game...

  The aim box is part of the game the rulers are a tool some add to the game screen, that's a difference. 

  kavvz:

  One more...

  It's ok to approximate ("feel"?) a wind direction with your eye and input that into a calculator to adjust your shot (which I suspect mags does on that casio), but it's not ok to use a compass to get the exact wind direction, input that into a spreadsheet to adjust your shot.

  Why do you suspect Mags does that on his casio, anything evidential or just completely you making it up?  Anyway, once again the former is using the game screen as wgt give us it and the other is adding to (altering) it.

  kavvz:

  We begin to see a pattern...

  "We" being?

  kavvz:

  Aids are simply shortcuts to do the same thing one of the best players on here does.  No different..that mags does it so well is a testament to him.   Even if mags' calcs are off a bit, he's such a good putter he makes up for it.

  Why is it that the people using these "shortcuts" are generally the ones that insist on longer clocks and take longer to play?  They are used simply to help people play the game better than they otherwise would, as you seem to aknowledge by calling them "aids".

  I haven't seen anyone here suggesting that any of this is breaking the rules, some have suggested it lessens the game in their opinion and you seem to take badly to that.  You have a different opinion then fine. 

• kavvz 2,195 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 12:11 PM

  BHenke2:

  Robert1893:

  I'm curious to know what you think the difference between calculations in a spreadsheet and basic math is.

  I do two calculations. One for elevation and one for wind speed. That's it. I have seen people using spreadsheets that have at least half a dozen inputs. Then add in the rulers, compasses and any other thing on their screens that make it easier. I know that I will never convince the spreadsheet users there is a difference and that's ok. I am happy to finish in the top five sometimes in the weekly WGT tourneys and am proud when I do this. If I had some fancy spreadsheet telling me exactly how to hit a shot I would not feel that I had accomplished the same thing. I am curious to how your spreadsheets work on the uneven lie tournaments? Or have they perfected them to work with those too. 

  So you're not a "feel" player then.  That's ok, neither am I.

  For those players that have spreadsheets like that I commend them.  I give them props for figuring that stuff out so well. 

  A ruler = the aimer box

  A compass simply gives a more precise wind direction that's it.  The number gained from the compass is no different from a number gained by other means -- they're still being in inputted into a formula.  

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 12:20 PM

  el3n1:

  I think it should be noted though... there do appear to be slightly more "restrictive" guidelines as to what can be used during the live WGT events and the Denmark event we watched.  Yes... calculators and notes were used... but there did appear to be some restrictions... at least that was my impression...

  What you mention is all that was allowed as far as I can remember.  There was nothing added to the game screen, no ruler or compass or whatever, and there was a 45sec clock.

  el3n1:

  Some players are altering their style of play to potentially become more competitive in a live event where cash is up for grabs...at least from what I can tell.

  Probably quite wise, if there was something screened live again who would want to watch folk take 90sec a shot to see who had the best spreadsheet ;-)

  Even when it was allowed, Mags v Naturali, I don't think it did him any favours trying to transplant his second computer and whatever into an unfamiliar set-up.

  Again I'm not saying spreadsheets are against any rules, they're not, just that watching someone use one would only be interesting only to a very select audience.

• darek2 1,880 Posts

  Sun, Jul 21 2019 12:21 PM

  BHenke2:

  If it is so ridiculous I would be curious to know what percentage out of the top 20 yearly money winners were spreadsheet users compared to basic math users. I presume both of you are spreadsheet users since you think there is no difference between the two. 

  4 sure u have one , I never use calculator or spreadsheeA ruler = the aimer box    and still I have fun & enjoyed , for sure will be help but I dont try , brain still working :)