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sandbagging out of control

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Wed, Aug 31 2011 11:57 AM

  DukemanII:

  the best equipment should be limited to the top tiers and if u want thus a pro or tour pro should only have a driver that may max at 260

  A subject of great discussion when the levels came into play. WGT's take on it....

  "The WGT Pro Shop will start unlocking all our virtual golf equipment based on Level rather than Tier. As in real life, you may never play as well as a real pro, but that doesn't mean you can't buy the same equipment they're using. However, also in real life, some golf equipment will continue to be designed for beginners and other for experts, in terms of factors like swing meter speed and forgiveness."

  From a year ago when they made the switch.......

  http://wgt.com/news/archive/2010/08.aspx

  There were a whole lot of players pushed into the next tier that didn't have the levels to get the equipment needed to compete at their new level. Oh, the howls. Those that took advantage of the clearance sale (not knowing what was coming) all breathed a collective  "Phew."   :-D

• IH8kidz 907 Posts

  Wed, Aug 31 2011 12:15 PM

       I would also suggest the same for Tour Masters vs Legends. Yeah the very best Legends can beat anyone from anywhere, but the disparity from TM to Legend tees can be pretty significant for the average Joe Legend. I was in an alt shot vs 2 TM's and casually mentioned the unfair advantage. Got called a whiner, and why did you pick this 9 holes, blah, blah. Doesn't matter which course you play, the disadvantage exists. I never said I wasn't having fun, just that it was unfair. Good thing I wasn't playing for credits. Let's face it, they're hitting 9 irons and wedges, and we're hitting 5 and 6 irons. Where's the fairness there? Then it was, well you became Legend, not me, more blah, blah, blah. Uh, because I took it as a challenge, that's why. Just because I'm a Legend doesn't mean my equipment will hit it longer. Thus, case proven.

   

• BillyTBudMan 100 Posts

  Wed, Aug 31 2011 12:50 PM

  Certain items should be reserved for Legends only, as from what i've been reading i gather that once was the case?  I do not think it's fair for even Master / Tour Master to have the R-11 or the new Burner irons.  I suppose maybe the next release of clubs they will make the new 290 yd driver and 230 yard irons for Legends only.  Otherwise at this point what can they do?  I say this because i noticed a lot of the posts in this thread are from legends, and lets face it, it makes sense they're upset.  There is nobody above them. 

  Although i have what i believe to be a solution.  Wait for it......They should put together a completely different pro shop, based on levels as well as teirs.  Hear me out now.  Say a master wants to get a new driver...loves the R-11, he can have it, say at level 70, however it is the master version of the R-11 and does not go 282, rather 272 or 265.  Same for irons, wedges, all other clubs.  When that master visits the pro shop, its the master only pro shop, no pro stuff, no legend stuff.  He/she can't even see what the other tiers have available to them.  This way the equipment is still level based, within your own tier.  Then, when you change tiers, you change pro shops, and the same equipment you had available to you before is still there, just with longer distances and better statistics.  This way WGT still makes all their money from sponsorships, players still attempt to level up to acquire better clubs, and higher tiers still have an equipment advantage over lower tiers.  If a player wants the best equipment, then they have no choice but lower their average and "tier up" instead of playing everything other than ranked stroke play rounds to level up.

  Someone tell me how that idea isn't fair to all.  It keeps inter-tier competition fair (or fairer than it is now) as well as still giving players incentive to level up to buy better equipment, and WGT can still offer everything they offer now, to all players, so they still make their money...hell they would make more money because every time a player changes tiers they will want to upgrade equipment again to better compete.

  The whole tier / level idea can work, it just isn't done right.  Players level points could even be reset to 0 every time they reach a new tier.  They would have to re-figure how many points you get for rounds and whatnot,  some good at math can do that pretty easily i reckon.

• IH8kidz 907 Posts

  Wed, Aug 31 2011 1:43 PM

  Well said, and great ideas Billy. I got dizzy reading it, but well said. LOL

• DAZZA501 5,972 Posts

  Wed, Aug 31 2011 2:16 PM

  Matchplay earnings should be recorded and shown on everyone's profile like career earnings. You don't need to add them to career earnings. Have them separate. Maybe shown next to their name before the start of the game so everyone knows exactly what they're dealing with. We can all see everyone's matchplay record but it doesn't state if those matches were for credits or fun. Then we'd know exactly who the sandbaggers are that sit in their lower tiers just to take advantage of MPC's.

  Dazza 

• navigater 1,319 Posts

  Wed, Aug 31 2011 3:04 PM

  1 point to make;;real pro golfers have a driving ave between 285 to 350 if they so desire to hit it that far.I know,I ain't no pro.but I do play in the pro am.when in state.My driving ave of record is 285.W/ R 9 ,LAST YEARS model

• lee22sharon 1,419 Posts

  Wed, Aug 31 2011 3:22 PM

  i will, only respond to the part of the problem as relates to equipment, who, when, and how much.  this site is resonably accurate as to game play, appearance, the vem, equipment as in relation to what you might find on the real market.  But! in another way it doesn't reflect true availabilty of equipment.  instance, a beginning golfer (non-video) would not, i think, dive into the deep end of the pool, for expensive equipment that  can not be used effectively.  i am sure that there many who if they had the funds would indeed buy the very best available, and attempt to use it.  the result i'm sure would be unplesant to those who can not really use what they bought.  i can understand what is being said about exclusive use, and availability, but again to mirror reality i don't think any type of equipment should only be available to selected persons.  as in real golf the best is expensive, within limits, so give everyone the opportunity to buy what they can afford, whenever.  not everyone has the same inaite abilities.  it would be a learning process. i'm sure the progression would, or should, be strenious.  for those legands i can see that they are displeased that any hojoke with the proper tier can buy anything except the closed out legand balls.  i would be also, especially if everytime i progressed to a fine degree i got shuffuled back to the end of the bus again.  the thought that keeps me going in the face of many adversities is that i want to get as good as i can, not as good as WGT, and assorted equipment, built in artificial limits can allow me to be.  perhaps the price structure on equipment can be rethought, making the best more difficult for the great unwashed to be able to purchase,. as example, an available "sponsership program" that is solely based on ability, to then give you a way of eventually being able to afford the high end equipment.  a handicap system could also be started that absolutly requires results orientated scoreing.  there are many ways to do things, WGT did not necessarly pick the best way.  but it is what we have for now, and still the best golf site on the web.  i would also think that as in real golf that factory sponsership for the really top players can, and maybe should lead to exclusive use of thier products.  i can invision exclusive tournaments, courses, pin placements, to name only a few of other things that could be done for those in the legand group.  maybe it is to easy? tweak the vem again?  a long piece, alot of my nickels, hope someone will read it. thanks.

   

   

   

• gilman10 431 Posts

  Wed, Aug 31 2011 7:41 PM

  Why is everyone obsessed with what others are doing? Why do you insist on forcing some other players to play by what you think is the "correct way"? 

  I saw some post where someone said the question is not whether we should play them, but rather if WGT should allow them to be sandbagging up the match play area..... what the hell does that even mean? Its simple. Avoid those players. Everyone does, and then they dont sandbag anything because they arent playing.

  Why should you restrict my ability (or anyone elses) to buy equipment since you can play better and got to legend with worse clubs than me? Its a fact better equipment can save you strokes and make you a better player. Why are you inventing all of these crazy schemes of which you claim will make the game fairer. It actually wont because you are forcing those players to have worse equipment than you. 

  Look deep down and face it. This is about changing the way that guy plays for no good reason other than you want to beat him in match play. Just ignore him and he bothers no1 and you dont end up ruining the experience for a player like me who is busting his ass to get to legend with the G10 driver and irons, but cant quite make it. Buying the R11 and burners would help get me there, but if we had it your way I wouldnt have access.

   

• chrisironsbones 3,524 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 4:33 AM

  gilman10:

  Why should you restrict my ability (or anyone elses) to buy equipment since you can play better and got to legend with worse clubs than me? Its a fact better equipment can save you strokes and make you a better player. Why are you inventing all of these crazy schemes of which you claim will make the game fairer. It actually wont because you are forcing those players to have worse equipment than you. 

  Look deep down and face it. This is about changing the way that guy plays for no good reason other than you want to beat him in match play. Just ignore him and he bothers no1 and you dont end up ruining the experience for a player like me who is busting his ass to get to legend with the G10 driver and irons, but cant quite make it. Buying the R11 and burners would help get me there, but if we had it your way I wouldnt have access.

  Its not restricting ability, because most of us legends made it here with the G10's & 275 yard driver.  It would be better all round to combat sandbaggers if the equipment was how it used to be, tier based.

  The max a pro could get is maybe 260 yard driver, Master & tour master 275 (maybe the 280)Master G10's & i15's.  And keep the R11 for legends (even the burner irons)  This gives people the incentive to go up tiers because i bet most tm's/legends would beat a sandbagging pro if he was limited to 250 yard driver. 

  When i began, i was desperate to reach the next tier to be able to buy a better driver because when you move from say amateur to pro, i was left with a starter driver and had to use long irons to reach green so needed a new driver to progress & make reaching greens easier. It makes people look forward to reaching next tier rather than staying on short tees and waiting until they reach level 88 and buy the R11 then they're able to land on the green with every drive and cheat people out of their $$ in matchplay or ready go's.  (and if they've posted a great deal of high scores in ranked rounds say 88 for 18 holes, then they will stay at tour pro for a long time)

• BillyTBudMan 100 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 5:23 AM

  gilman10:

  Why should you restrict my ability (or anyone elses) to buy equipment since you can play better and got to legend with worse clubs than me? Its a fact better equipment can save you strokes and make you a better player. Why are you inventing all of these crazy schemes of which you claim will make the game fairer. It actually wont because you are forcing those players to have worse equipment than you. 

   

  How is forcing you to give up some distance off the tee restricting your ability?  Does being able to hit all your drives within wedge distance of most greens make you a better player?  In my opinion it does not, nor does it prep you for the next tier of competition at all.  The only thing buying the R11's and Burners would do is "help you get there" faster...only to be SOL when you do, having no clue how to play your way around what would now be a completely foreign golf course.  It is a large difference i'm sure when players do reach Legend, and now have to figure out how to stick a 6 iron instead of a sand wedge.  By restricted even just the distance off the tee to lower tier players, they would already have an idea how to hit most of the same shots they would face when they actually do reach the next tier.

   

  And for those who think that they should be able to buy all the best equipment because that's how it is in the real world, are completely wrong.  You, as a weekend golfer, cannot go buy what the pros use.  You cannot go buy the R-11, (which by the way has been custom made to fit your height, build, swing speed, and launch angle by the guys at the Taylor Made factory, only after you've spent countless hours in their testing facility, and oh don't forget they are paying you millions to hit their equipment).  You simply cannot do that.  So, if we are comparing real life to this game, the Legends being the "pros" of circuit, should have the best equipment available to them, and them alone.  As they have put in the time and effort to get to where they are.  This game is nothing like real life, it is far more closely related to a math problem than the actual playing of golf, distances, wind speeds, green speeds, rough length, are all fixed.  In real life they are not.  If you're a 12 handicap in real life who hits the ball 250 off the tee, and you buy the shiny white R-11, do you automatically hit it 285???  No you do not.  you might get a few extra yards every now and then, but mostly you like an idiot for being the guy who ran out and got that awful looking thing as soon as you saw Darren Clark win The Open with it as an old guy.  Only in this game does the equipment more make the golfer, in real life it is the complete opposite.  If this game was based on skill and skill alone, we would all have the same clubs and balls.