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sandbagging out of control

• gilman10 431 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 5:41 AM

  chrisironsbones:

  Its not restricting ability, because most of us legends made it here with the G10's & 275 yard driver.  It would be better all round to combat sandbaggers if the equipment was how it used to be, tier based.

  The max a pro could get is maybe 260 yard driver, Master & tour master 275 (maybe the 280)Master G10's & i15's.  And keep the R11 for legends (even the burner irons)  This gives people the incentive to go up tiers because i bet most tm's/legends would beat a sandbagging pro if he was limited to 250 yard driver. 

  When i began, i was desperate to reach the next tier to be able to buy a better driver because when you move from say amateur to pro, i was left with a starter driver and had to use long irons to reach green so needed a new driver to progress & make reaching greens easier. It makes people look forward to reaching next tier rather than staying on short tees and waiting until they reach level 88 and buy the R11 then they're able to land on the green with every drive and cheat people out of their $ in matchplay or ready go's.  (and if they've posted a great deal of high scores in ranked rounds say 88 for 18 holes, then they will stay at tour pro for a long time)

  Once again its the same regurgitated argument. Ive heard it before. The question is WHY. Why do you care? You say its not restricting in your first sentence, then in the second paragraph you cut off the marginal player's ability to get better with a quick equipment boost. 

  Sandbagger's are not able to cheat people out of money in match play if people just dont play the sandbaggers. Its easy. I barely even see a sandbagger since I dont play tour pro and below. I also check master's profiles to see if they have all the best equipment and questionable stats. If I think its an even match I go for it. And frankly for me to sit here and pretend it would be an even match if the tour pro had pro equipment and I had master equipment, it would be me acting in an unethical manner. Ive seen it plenty from the legend tier, tons of legends with 60 and below average want to play me. Why? Do they really think its an even match? But thats a side note.

  I agree ready gos are a problem, but a sandbagger winning ready gos cannot do it for long since winning those tourneys lower your avg and moves you up. Which would require the sandbagger to start over and buy new equipment again. Perhaps you could try to restrict entry to those tournaments by level, but frankly I tend to err on the side of not restricing the honest player's game. Ive had plenty of friends who even though they moved to the master clubs from the pro tees sucked, and took forever to move up. They clearly did not have an unfair advantage in RG tourneys.....

   

• gilman10 431 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 5:51 AM

  BillyTBudMan:

  How is forcing you to give up some distance off the tee restricting your ability?  Does being able to hit all your drives within wedge distance of most greens make you a better player?  In my opinion it does not, nor does it prep you for the next tier of competition at all.  The only thing buying the R11's and Burners would do is "help you get there" faster...only to be SOL when you do, having no clue how to play your way around what would now be a completely foreign golf course.  It is a large difference i'm sure when players do reach Legend, and now have to figure out how to stick a 6 iron instead of a sand wedge.  By restricted even just the distance off the tee to lower tier players, they would already have an idea how to hit most of the same shots they would face when they actually do reach the next tier.

  Oh thats rich. To paraphrase your position, "We are going to stop you from buying the clubs you want to buy and play how you want to play so that we can protect you and teach you how to compete at the next level". Thanks. But just play your game and let the other guy play his. I play plenty of people with R11s and burner 2.0s that have no clue for the exact reason you post. So what? Let them play how they want too.

  You still want some way to compete "fairly" against people who are in lower tiers than you. What kind of position is that. Youre BETTER than they are thats why you got moved up. You shouldnt play them for money its unethical by your own standards. No, you want easy money so you do want to play them and whats worse, you want to make sure they dont have an advantage on a couple of holes per course. I mean really, how bad is it? Ive seen legends use the legend distance balls out drive my buddies with R11s. Oh no! 1 or 2 holes per match they lose 40 yards. Well the fact legends are bettter should make up for that. 

• chrisironsbones 3,524 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 6:51 AM

  well said

• TaterNater 545 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 6:53 AM

  Legend = Dinasour..

• JaLaBar 1,254 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 10:22 AM

  gilman10:

  Why should you restrict my ability (or anyone elses) to buy equipment since you can play better and got to legend with worse clubs than me? Its a fact better equipment can save you strokes and make you a better player. Why are you inventing all of these crazy schemes of which you claim will make the game fairer. It actually wont because you are forcing those players to have worse equipment than you. 

  Look deep down and face it. This is about changing the way that guy plays for no good reason other than you want to beat him in match play. Just ignore him and he bothers no1 and you dont end up ruining the experience for a player like me who is busting his ass to get to legend with the G10 driver and irons, but cant quite make it. Buying the R11 and burners would help get me there, but if we had it your way I wouldnt have access.

  No, actually... what we are talking about is combating sandbagging, but if you want to go there...

  OK, you can get all the equipment I can, if every tourney you play, where you are in any way competing against me, I get to hit from your tees, and play on your greens.  Why should I have to play from tees farther back than you do?  Well, I do... it's the cost of making Legend.  As the benefit of making Legend, I get equipment you can't.  It's a fair trade.  But if you want access to all my equipment, then fine... we'll level the playing field as far as greens and tees go too.  Sound good?

  No, what this is about is YOU wanting to play from the ladies tees and still use the same gear the men use.  It's bout YOU wanting to keep the unfair advantage that YOU have over the higher tiers.  Trying to turn it around is clever, but ultimately fruitless.

  However, for me I don't advocate a change in the availability of equipment.  I advocate a change in the way tiers are achieved.  They should factor winnings into tier position, whether through a separate winnings based ladder where you could tier EITHER through X avg. over Y games OR through X winnings at Y tier.  Or they could create a hybrid where every 100 credits won shaves .1 off a virtual average that is only used for tier elevation.  So if you are a TM with a 62 average, and you have won 1100 credits at TM, your effective average becomes 60.90 and you move to Legend.  Sure, the limiting of equipment would curtail the sandbagging, but if you factor winnings into tier elevation, you curtail the sandbaggers AND the dual-accounters, which to me are a much more serious problem.  

  Limiting the equipment available at tiers hurts the sand-baggers, but ends up helping the dual-accounts, because they know they will be able to play the same equipment as the others in their tier, and with their experience have a better chance.

• robdelahunty 670 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 10:38 AM

  WGTicon:

  if you see a hack who is level 90, if you chose to play them, then it's your call.

  Icon,some of the names within this thread it's like a who's who of Legend WOW's.Please tell me you can be bothered and will continue to read their opinions and possible solutions!

  At the moment it would seem that rather than taking the concerns of the members to your superiors,you just say to not play with them!  What that effectively says is you and WGT  want the sandbaggers to stay...

  When i 1st found this place i soon became aware of the cheating Sandbaggers in the      R go's.Never bothered with em since.That has cost you $,a fool and his money are soon parted

  Sounds like most folks have known about  WGT's real stance on this,and i applauad your honesty and thank you for at least putting it into writing!

  There are obviously some bright staff employed by WGT,you can do the right thing here and put this shamefull carry on to bed!

  Bob 

• gilman10 431 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 10:58 AM

  JaLaBar:

  No, what this is about is YOU wanting to play from the ladies tees and still use the same gear the men use.  It's bout YOU wanting to keep the unfair advantage that YOU have over the higher tiers.  Trying to turn it around is clever, but ultimately fruitless.

  Clearly this is not the case. I use the L58 G10 driver and irons. This is about me having fun. I will go as far as I think I can with this equipment, then I want to buy the next best thing and move up more. And this advantage I supposedly have with equipment is not an unfair advantage - you are a better player and thats why youve moved up a tier. Why do you feel so entitled to something because you play better than others. WGT is trying to put together an enjoyable came for the masses. Not restrict things and force people into some way you think the game is fairly played.

  Furthermore, it is easy for you to eliminate this "unfair advantage" simply by electing not to play against people who are in your opinion exploiting the game system by looking at their profile before playing in a match with them. Ready goes and multi-tiered tournaments are clearly a problem, but as Ive said, not a huge one because to beat the best legends out there, youre going to have to shoot low enough to move up to the legend tier. At which point youve cut your ability to sandbag. In order to make it more "fair" in your eyese perhaps there just needs to be exlusive tourneys that legends only play with legends. 

  But frankly I still dont understand all the whining. You arent that much further back, and with the legend balls i usually see legends putting the ball past me (G10) and at least even with my buddies that have R11s on most holes. Sure there are holes that move you back more, but not many and you are a better player than the tour masters out there so that should make up for it. 

   

• chrisironsbones 3,524 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 11:23 AM

  gilman10:

  But frankly I still dont understand all the whining. You arent that much further back,

  Get to legend then say that.  300+ yards on most courses extra. In other words, we have to play an equivalent extra par 4, with same equipment as you.  Kiwah back 9 for example, on tour master tees its easy to birdie every hole (this is true on most courses aswel) due to being able to use wedge for most approaches where as legends have to use long irons.  Kiwah back 9 used to be easy as master, but its one of the toughest courses when youre a legend and this is what the 'baggers realise, masters who sit on Kiwah back 9 in chalenge matches knowing they have one huge advantage, but refuse to play b'page back 9 where there is only 100 yards extra for them.

• gilman10 431 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 11:43 AM

  Yes I know about the B9 on KI. Yes its much harder. But blammo, you just solved your own problem. Dont play sandbaggers, its easy to identify, especially on that track. What is the motivation for you to play against people who are in lower tiers (worse than you) anyway? Easy money?

  And please dont exaggerate it  "equivalent par 4". Like we get 4 strokes a round by default. I have played plenty of games with legends and lost, Ive won some too sure, but dont make it out to be a gimme win for masters because you have some extra yardage to make up. 

   

• chrisironsbones 3,524 Posts

  Thu, Sep 1 2011 11:57 AM

  gilman10:

  What is the motivation for you to play against people who are in lower tiers (worse than you) anyway? Easy money?

  I prefer playing masters+ anyway, not that i loose much  if you have time to see my matchplay stats.  I prefer a tough match than an easy victory, feel guilty if i was to thrash a pro.

  You go on about wanting the best equipment but you're using g10's so what difference would it be if the burners were locked until legend, would give you an incentive to get there, or stay at t/master with your g10's.

  And you say you've beaten a few legends as well as lost, but if those legends were at the same tees as you, how many times do you think you might win then?? Its as some one else said, your happy with your advantage you've got playing off shorter tees, winning tourneys and matchplay games so you don't really want to get to legend status and have to get used to a whole tougher game.  (my average went way up, as did others when we got to legend)

  I'm not whining about being a legend, i love the challenge and have got used to it, and would beat most tour masters i play against, and i still win ready go's, it's just funny how people are quick to point the finger at us or say we want exclusive equipment etc etc, and  R11 should be legends only etc etc when they've not experienced playing off longer tees.  All i was explaining is it would give people an incentive to reach legend if the best driver was only available to us. And don't mention it wanting  you to use 5hit equipment to keep you playing poorly because all of us legends never had burners or R11 when we were masters, and i used to have an average of 58 WITH G10'S AND 275 yard driver