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The best thing I did to better my score

Thu, Nov 7 2013 12:50 AM (75 replies)
  • jmehdi
    50 Posts
    Fri, Dec 30 2011 5:26 PM

    genorb:

    Well that's not necessarily a good idea to use the formula from another guy (many would not agree with mine, I am sure). The formula give you an idea of the effective distance to the pin. But then you can still play with the amount of spin you set. For example, if the pin is at an effective distance of 168 yds, I can use my 165yds iron with almost no spin, or use my 180yds with full back spin and reduced power. In addition, all irons do not react the same way. My 165yds iron is a bit short for me while my 150yds iron is a bit long for example.

    You should construct the formula yourself (see below). An important point is that the distance to add or subtract due to the wind is always a % of the distance between you and the target (this is not a constant distance to add). Indeed, let's take the following example. You have a given headwind and you set 100yds of power. The ball travels only 90yds due to the wind. Now you have the same headwind and you set 200yds of power. What would be the distance travelled? Not 190yds but 180yds. indeed, when the ball travels the first 100yds it loses 10yds, but the ball will again lose 10 yds during the remaining 100yds.

    I hope I am clear enough...

    That's not complicated to contruct the formula but it takes some time.

    Collecting the data

    Pick up a course like Kiawah or Bethpage (not STA because the fairway are rolling too much) and tee off with your irons with full power (take for example your 195yds iron (I see you are using the R11 irons)) and the spin you like or use the more (once on the fairway, you can still play another shot). Do it until you get perfect headwind. You need also to ding the shot if you play full back spin. So with full power the ball goes normally to 195yds, but that with that headwind (X1 mph) the ball goes to 180yds. So the factor in the case is

    F(X1) = 195/180 =1.08

    (so you know that with that wind you need to multiply the distance by that factor. So to reach 195 yds you need actually to set 195*1.08 = 211 yds of power)

    Now later on you get another perfect headwind (X2 mph). Again with full power the ball goes normally to 195yds, but that with that headwind (X2 mph) the ball goes to 185yds. The factor in this case is

    F(X2)= 195/185 =1.05

    Ideally, you need to get several data for each value of the wind and you do an average.

    Constructing the formula

    Now you know two things

    1. If there is no wind, the factor is 1. This mean that F(0) = 1
    2. the larger the wind the larger the factor F

    So when you have enough data you can search for the simplest formula (a linear relationship between the factor F and the wind velocity X) which fit your data and is in agreement with the two points above. Such a relation reads

    F(X) = 1 + X * A  

    (indeed F(0) = 1 and F increases linearly when X increases if A is a positive quantity)

    The data you have accumulated will help you to determine what should be the value of the constant A.

    Now of course you still need to figure out how to modify your formula when you have 8 o'clock wind for example (wind between cross wind and full headwind)... That's a bit more tricky.

    I hope I was clear enough.

    Titus, Genorb, et al,

    I commend you both on finding the system that has improved your games. I must confess that I'm among the group that doesn't entirely understand your calculations, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate them.

    With all due respect, (and I may have overlooked its mention), but I think there are a couple criteria you may not have factored in.

    1. Ball flight. Specifically the parabolic changes from one club to another. For example, a 1 iron (yes, I know), that goes a potential 200 yds, and a PW rated for 100 yds are not necessarily affected by wind (and other factors) to the same ratio.

    While the distance traveled is 2:1, I think you'll find the PW is more affected my wind than the 1 iron (yes, yes. I know already. sheesh.) because the arc of the higher lofted club needs more flight time/route to travel a given distance.

    To put it another way, If I have a 100 yard approach and choose to hit a 60 degree wedge, the ball will actually travel 166 yards on its way to the hole when you factor in the rise and fall of the golf ball. (If that math is wrong, and it might be, it irrelevant to the point).

    If you were very very stupid and decided to hit a 1 iron in this hypothetical situation, the ball flight might only travel a total of 120 yards to reach the 100 yards-away pin because of the change in loft.

    You see where I'm going with this...

    The wedge has 30% (ish) more time just floating around in the air letting itself get pushed around by the wind.

    My second point is the force of ball in flight. Most people know you can power through the break on a fast green if you need/want to. The effect of the wind on a ball in flight is essentially the same thing, i.e. the harder you hit it, the less the wind will have an effect on it.

    Because a golf ball flies at a faster speed when hit by a driver than when it's hit by a wedge, it has more initial inertia to mute the effect of the wind than a wedge does.

    As any golfer knows, the wind affects the end of the ball flight much more than the beginning of the ball flight. Since different clubs have different trajectories, some clubs will be affected much later in the parabolic return to Earth than others.

    Now, I'm not a mathematician, but I am logically minded. I understand that these are factors when hitting a golf shot and I take them into account, but only insofar as I can still play it by feel.

    I don't have a calculator in front of me when playing (maybe I should), but that's not to say I discount the relevant factors that can affect a shot. I try to factor it all, and I usually know why I missed when I do.

    If these points are too much minutiae, I apologize, but if you're going to develop a formula, they are definitely factors to take into account.

    (I'm drinking rum right now, so if this isn't as clear on paper as it is in my head, it's entirely my fault. Well, it's the rum's fault, but I'm an accomplice)

    I admire both Genorb and Titus for delving into the mathematics of it all.

     

     

  • jmehdi
    50 Posts
    Fri, Dec 30 2011 5:48 PM

    MBaggese:
    I guess treating this game the way I play in real life is not the way it needs to be played.

    I appreciate your sentiment. I'm better at this game than I am in real life (by an embarrassing amount), but I don't think it's because the game is inherently different than real world golf. In fact, the more I play at WGT and deeper my understanding of the physics involved with golf, the more I appreciate how incredibly accurate this game actually is.

    The difference between real golf and WGT isn't the game, it's me.

    I can't hit a golf ball perfectly (or even close) with any regularity. That doesn't make the game unrealistic, it makes me human.

    If all I have to do in real golf is plan my shot and then execute it with only the use of my index finger, I probably could shoot a 29. Unfortunately, there are a lot more things going on in my golf swing than what my index finger is doing.

    At WGT, I'm never going to lift my head early. I'm never going to be off balance. I'm never going to have bad footing. I'm never going to be distracted by the beer cart girl or riddled with secret fright because a bumble bee is doing sorties around head.

    WGT has really done an amazing job at factoring in everything involved in a golf shot that doesn't include my grand mal seizure of a golf swing.

  • arystheking
    18 Posts
    Fri, Dec 30 2011 6:15 PM

    you guys probaly dont want to hear this from me but ive been on here for a year and a half and have never done this stuff so its new to me. But i got to where i am because i praticed 3 times before i played and put it on all the hardest settings on the course i was gunna play so it would be tough. that way i would shoot a even par round so when i went out it was a lot easier than what i thought it was gonna be so i scored a 31 or 30 pretty easy there from my point of veiw but thats just me. it makes it a little bit simpler for me so give it a trie and also give  titus a trie

       well have fun and dont think too much, ary:)

  • titus1919
    130 Posts
    Mon, Jan 2 2012 9:30 AM

    In RL I have a 2 HC I have notes on all the courses I play and I have notes on all of my clubs. wich includes wind performance. to be good in any form of golf you need to mix math, luck and skill IMHO.  Yes I enjoy the math of it all. but yes the mathe can not help the unlucky bounce the strong gut feeling. I play my game my way and you can play  your way.  I would be glad to play anyone and have fun. I mostly do ranked stroke play. My opponet is always the course.

  • CocoaKrispies
    9 Posts
    Mon, Jan 2 2012 3:15 PM

    If I may....  There are many here that try very hard and treasure ANY tidbit a veteran may offer!!!  Keep them coming PLease!!!!!!!  Thank you!

  • CocoaKrispies
    9 Posts
    Mon, Jan 2 2012 4:31 PM

    Um, with all do respect.... It interests me GREATLY!!  I would love to hear more!

  • CocoaKrispies
    9 Posts
    Mon, Jan 2 2012 4:44 PM

    I have known for a while that math is a the factor in this game that really counts. In fact the GAME is a computer program with 1s and 0s. every event in this game is there due to mathematical formulas to make the game as accurate as possible.

    That being said I love that you took the time to put this out there for the rest of us that struggle to be competitve enough to have fun. The putting I have down perfectly. (Just need to "DING" more often. But the wind and elevation were a bit more vague. I was calculating wind (Direct) as 1/2 of wind speed and elevation as 1/3. this was ok but just not that accurate. So I guess I am saying thank you and the others that care enough to clue the rest of us in at what you have found to be helpful to you.

    Happy new year and God Bless!

  • genorb
    1,255 Posts
    Mon, Jan 2 2012 6:24 PM

    jmehdi:

    1. Ball flight. Specifically the parabolic changes from one club to another. For example, a 1 iron (yes, I know), that goes a potential 200 yds, and a PW rated for 100 yds are not necessarily affected by wind (and other factors) to the same ratio.

    While the distance traveled is 2:1, I think you'll find the PW is more affected my wind than the 1 iron (yes, yes. I know already. sheesh.) because the arc of the higher lofted club needs more flight time/route to travel a given distance.

    First of all, thanks for your kind words.

    You are completely right with what you are writing here above. What is important is the distance travelled in the air (the length of the arc) and not the horizontal distance travelled. See below.

    jmehdi:

    My second point is the force of ball in flight. Most people know you can power through the break on a fast green if you need/want to. The effect of the wind on a ball in flight is essentially the same thing, i.e. the harder you hit it, the less the wind will have an effect on it.

    That's physically wrong but that's anyway an interesting point.

    The effect of the wind (air resistance/drag) are in general proportional to the velocity of the object to the square. So this is the converse, the harder you hit, the more the wind will have an effect on it.

    The mistake you are doing is to say that if you hit stronger the ball, it will travel a longer distance. And thus you conclude that the wind has less effect. But you need actually to compare the distance travelled with and without wind (or with and without air resistance) for the same initial speed.

    This is quite well known. For example in athletics, compare how are dressed those who run a 100 meters with those who run much longer distance. When you run a long distance, your velocity is smaller and air resistance (drag) is not so important compared to those who run a 100 meters.

    So when you hit the ball with a long iron, the velocity of the ball is higher and the wind has more effect on the ball but, as you pointed out, the trajectory is also more flat compared to a shot with a short iron (or a wedge). So on long shots, even if the effect of the wind is higher, the trajectory being more flat, the wind has less time to act on the ball. On short shots, the velocity of the ball is smaller and the wind has less effect but the trajectory being more curved (the trajectory is higher, so the difference between the arc length and the horizontal distance travelled is larger) and the wind has more time to act on the ball.

    It turns out that the two effects compensate in a good approximation such as finally one can come with a unique formula valid for all irons and distances. This is not trivial/obvious (I agree), but that's the outcome from experiments I did on the course. Of course, this is not rocket science. It's an approximate formula (the simplest you can imagine) but it works well enough.

    Thanks for your inputs.

    Regards

  • MBaggese
    15,367 Posts
    Mon, Jan 2 2012 9:53 PM

    titus1919:
    n RL I have a 2 HC I have notes on all the courses I play and I have notes on all of my clubs. wich includes wind performance

     

    Please tell more?

  • MBaggese
    15,367 Posts
    Mon, Jan 2 2012 9:55 PM

    genorb:
    The effect of the wind (air resistance/drag) are in general proportional to the velocity of the object to the square. So this is the converse, the harder you hit, the more the wind will have an effect on it.

    Fluid dynamics, but J's first point (not quoted) was correct.

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