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• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Sat, May 30 2020 3:15 PM

  Robert1893:

  Nicole161106:

  I was looking at this kind of site that shows the pph avg.

  The leader is on 1.68, 1.77 would be top 120.

  https://scores.nbcsports.com/golf/averages.asp?tour=PGA&rank=13

  As I understand it, putting average is calculated only on GIR. Total putts includes all holes, regardless if the green was reached in regulation. 
  
  I guarantee you that all of our putts per hole average would be higher if it were calculated on GIR.

  This is nippin ma heid, I hate when I can't get numbers to work.

  Robert:   27.71 is for putts per round, he divided this by 18 and got 1.54pph.

  Nicole: 1.68 is pph.

  What I couldn't see in either link was how many the pro's hole from off the green; approaches, chips, putts from the fringe etc.    I think that may be some of the difference in the numbers, if you divide by 18 when he isn't always putting on all 18 then it's not a straight conversion from PPR to PPH.

   

• Robert1893 7,722 Posts

  Sat, May 30 2020 3:24 PM

  @DodgyPutter

  As I mentioned, the putts per hole average is only for those holes in which the green was reached in regulation. Therefore, putts per hole average does not include all holes.
  
  Putts per round includes all holes. 
  
  While both numbers are useful, in determining quality of putting, I would think the putts per hole average (that only includes holes reached in regulation) is the more illuminating or useful number.. It's just that we don't have the equivalent in WGT stats. 

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Sun, May 31 2020 2:12 AM

  Doesn't really seem right, although I'm not suggesting it's not, GIR is meant to reflect accuracy of approaches etc yet if you hole one it doesn't count toward that stat'?

• Nicole161106 281 Posts

  Sun, May 31 2020 6:22 AM

  I understand what Robert says about greens in regulation but it throws up a few interesting points. Say you reach a par 5 in 2, 50 ft from the hole, you 3 putt, does that mean you have taken 3 putts on that hole? , or does the 1st putt not count? What if you hole that 1st putt? Does that mean you have played 1 putt, or zero putts?

  It's dain ma heid in as well Dodgy :)

• Robert1893 7,722 Posts

  Sun, May 31 2020 6:33 AM

  DodgyPutter:

  Doesn't really seem right, although I'm not suggesting it's not, GIR is meant to reflect accuracy of approaches etc yet if you hole one it doesn't count toward that stat'?

  It makes sense to me. But I'm probably not explaining it well. One has to find a way to standardized the numbers so as to provide a more accurate comparison. The easiest way is to look at the golfers in a situation in which the expectation is the same: 2 putts. So, for PPH, just include those holes in which both players were on the green in regulation.
  
  Consider two golfers. At the end of the round, both golfers have the same number of total putts. But golfer 2 is much more consistent in getting on the green in regulation. While each golfer's putts per hole (for all holes) is equal, if one were to include only those holes in which the golfer was on the green in regulation, the putting statistic for PPH looks quite different. 
  
  Here's an illustration I put together with some made-up data for a 9-hole round. Looking at all holes, the two golfers appear to be equal. But looking at them for only those holes they both reached the green in regulation, a different picture emerges. 

   

  

   

• Wutpa 4,803 Posts

  Wed, Jun 3 2020 10:39 AM

  Nicole161106:

  I understand what Robert says about greens in regulation but it throws up a few interesting points. Say you reach a par 5 in 2,

  I don't know about the pro game, but I'm pretty sure that in WGT if you reach a par 5 in 2 it counts that as a positive GIR stat. It's only if you reach it in 4 shots or worse that it doesn't, and therefore the equivalent range is true on par 3 and par 4 holes too.

  Nigel.

• Robert1893 7,722 Posts

  Wed, Jun 3 2020 11:01 AM

  Nicole161106:

  I understand what Robert says about greens in regulation but it throws up a few interesting points. Say you reach a par 5 in 2, 50 ft from the hole, you 3 putt, does that mean you have taken 3 putts on that hole? , or does the 1st putt not count? What if you hole that 1st putt? Does that mean you have played 1 putt, or zero putts?

  As I understand it, reaching a par 5 in two would be counted as a GIR. That means those who are more likely to go for the green in 2 could be "penalized" in the PPH based on GIRs because of 3-putts.
  
  Nevertheless, I looked at the "going for it" statistic for par 5s. Even the best players are successful in hitting the green only about one-third of the time. With the standard course layout including only 4 par 5s, any bias or skewness introduced would become negligible in the aggregate (after a substantial number of rounds have been completed). 

• DodgyPutter 4,690 Posts

  Wed, Jun 3 2020 11:31 AM

  Robert thanks for all the trouble you've gone to here. 

  I do get how the GIR as affects putting works and see they're tring to compare like with like. 

  What I was saying dosn't seem right above was if a holed approach doesn't count as a GIR then it doesn't seem right in relation to that stat' (GIR).